that is one brave doctor

[MrsLargeEmbodied]

to speak about not having the vaccination
www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/08/nhs-doctor-challenges-sajid-javid-over-covid-vaccination-rules

he has had a lot of support

@Turquoisesea if he makes money from people who have had COVID then yes I think it is valid to compare him to Wakefield.

@dittymcdit So glad someone else actually watched what happened. The repeated "he was asked a question" are getting ridiculous.

@ancientgran I can’t edit my post to say he wasn’t directly asked but take it you’re happy with the rest of what I’ve said given that was your only challenge to my post?!

I think he is irresponsible. Does he want to see more unvaccinated patients in his care, that who may have been able to avoid hospitalization if been vaccinated?

But the majority of the population are already vaccinated, I doubt his words will make any difference to people as by now people will have made up their own minds to have been vaccinated or not. I agree if he said that at the beginning of the pandemic it would have been very different. Obviously vaccinations have made a huge difference, his argument was that the protection wanes and he doesn’t want to have to be vaccinated every few weeks to keep his job.

MrsLarge, He's never likely to have to weigh up gestational diabetes, possible effect on personal and fetal Covid damage if he's hit by it, and his essential role that saves other lives, though, is he? If he loses his job, there's always his private Breathlessness Clinic consultations, so that's something. Should be good for his business, this last couple of years. From where I am sitting, it seems not to have too much in common with "a hospital in an area of South London which has seen many many deaths and (will be) working with pregnant women and very newborns," as kirinm pointed out a few posts ago.

[quote Awakened22]@ancientgran I can’t edit my post to say he wasn’t directly asked but take it you’re happy with the rest of what I’ve said given that was your only challenge to my post?![/quote]
I think if people want to attack or defend something they need to be accurate. You are entitled to your opinion as is he, I think using a false defence actually weakens your case.

[quote Awakened22]@ancientgran his colleagues were clearly uncomfortable with the question or didn’t want to answer so he stepped in. If he’d “stuck his nose in” and was very pro-mandate would you still have an issue?[/quote]
Being pro or anti mandate isn't quite the same argument to the one he put forward. He has specifically called into question the validity of the vaccination. That was irresponsible and dangerous.

If I was at work and a director was going around my department and asked colleagues a question they weren’t comfortable with, I would absolutely jump in even if it wasn’t directed at me. When Sajid asks the question they seem to laugh nervously and look at each other or to the floor…why would a senior consultant on the ward not step in?

@Turquoisesea

But the majority of the population are already vaccinated, I doubt his words will make any difference to people as by now people will have made up their own minds to have been vaccinated or not. I agree if he said that at the beginning of the pandemic it would have been very different. Obviously vaccinations have made a huge difference, his argument was that the protection wanes and he doesn’t want to have to be vaccinated every few weeks to keep his job.

If you look at the stats there are people still getting their first dose of the vaccine so his words could make a difference to those people.

Who has said he needs to be vaccinated every few weeks?

@SeeminglyOblivious

I find it amusing how those strongly in favour of the vaccine scream that we must follow the science and listen to medical professionals...until of course, a medical professional refuses to tow the party line and has a different opinion. Then his intelligence, qualifications, background are picked apart in order to discredit him.

He makes absolutely sensible points. Vaccines don't give lasting immunity. If the aim is for all NHS staff to have a high level of protection from catching the virus through vaccination, the Government need to implement bi-monthly vaccines as a minimum for all NHS staff. If they don't do this, making vaccination compulsory is pointless.

It is sort of fascinating to observe.

I can understand that people really really want the vaccines to be a solution but seeing people pull apart a medical professional for calmly and politely making perfectly reasonable points which are born out in the current data we have on vaccine effectiveness is quite disturbing.

The group think, black and white think and desire to ostracise via smear and personal attack is really awful. It's all getting a bit desperate. I hope we are going to be able to have sensible grown up discussions soon on vaccine waning.

In order for that to happen though people are going to have to let go of the comforting idea that vaccination is the be all and end all. They are also going to have to face the fact that the vaccines were (due to the pandemic situation) authorised hastily and with incomplete data. We have to be honest about the emerging data and our governments should be basing their policy on data not wishful thinking.

@Awakened22

If I was at work and a director was going around my department and asked colleagues a question they weren’t comfortable with, I would absolutely jump in even if it wasn’t directed at me. When Sajid asks the question they seem to laugh nervously and look at each other or to the floor…why would a senior consultant on the ward not step in?

But would you then say you were asked the question.

I wonder if they felt awkward answering as a senior consultant was standing behind Javid looking at them and they knew his views? I wonder if they were junior to him?

@ChateauMargaux

We do need scientists, doctors and others to be able to speak out and talk about the options, the benefits and the risks of all routes forward. This is an unprecedented situation which has taken unexpected turns and has an unpredictable future. The vaccinations were developed in record time (regardless of what people say to counteract that fact) and the reality is that the vaccines wane quickly. We need to carry on looking at the ongoing effectiveness of the vaccine, the ongoing risks posed by the virus and we need to continue to explore all options that are available to us, whether that be improvements in testing, improvements in treatment, improvements in vaccines... this virus has not stood still, neither can we.

It is not easy to speak out or pose questions these days when your face and words are spread all over the media, when opinions from closed government meetings are leaked to the press, when public opinion is carefully managed and the mob culture on twitter prevents the true and free expression of opinions. When we teach our children critical thinking at school, we teach them to question sources, to explore around the subject, to investigate alternatives and present counter arguments. We cannot allow these important skills to be silenced because we believe the answer to be already here.

We do not have the answer to Coronavirus. The further we progress through this pandemic, the more it becomes obvious that mass vaccination of the entire global population every 10 weeks, is not the answer, neither from a clinical perspective, an efficient use of resources nor an environmental perspective.

What might work... well, we might find a drug that prevents the serious lung related effects of coronavirus that can be taken once you start to show symptoms, that would only need to be given to positive cases, in the UK that would be 14M cases so far. Testing might become more efficient, we might also be able to assess who is more likely to suffer severe effects and to focus our efforts on those.

As with many other topics, we hear the loudest voices, when other voices speak up and are silenced, we have no idea how large that body of opinion is, unless we give it space to be heard. I stand by the freedom of speech.

Well said.

If you were jumping in with an answer would you also admit that you had a vested interest and benefitted from people having COVID.

@ancientgran I’m happy to retract my comment saying he was directly asked but that doesn’t change my opinion on his comments or the questions we should be asking about the benefits of mandating vaccines.

I’m young and fit, or rather I was fit before contracting covid in March 2020. I’m 42 and just into ideal weight (having been a little underweight when I was younger), no underlying health problems at all and get ill rarely and bounce back quickly when I do.

I was in bed for 2 weeks with Covid and my energy levels were low for weeks afterwards, I was napping most days, definitely had post-virus fatigue. When I’ve tried to exercise since I’ve found I get very very quickly out of breath.

I was shocked to see this icu doctor say he didn’t want the vaccine and that everyone in icu was overweight, it doesn’t match the experiences of friends I’ve spoken to who worked in covid wards during the last wave, I think that many people in hospitals but not in icu are a different profile? But also ignores the fact that many people who don’t get as far as hospitals are still really unwell for an extended period of time.

Vaccines aren’t just about reducing transmission (although they do do that) they are also about significantly reducing the severity of illness.

[quote Awakened22]@ancientgran I’m happy to retract my comment saying he was directly asked but that doesn’t change my opinion on his comments or the questions we should be asking about the benefits of mandating vaccines.[/quote]
Well that is good, obviously it would be a hard position to maintain when the video evidence is quite clear.

@thecatfromjapan

I'm tired of this anti-vaccination stuff on MN.

It's beyond irresponsible.

Why are you not capable of discerning the difference between anti vaccination and anti mandatory vaccination? 🤔

Beachcomber - well said.

Good for him.

He has had covid and was fine, so why does he need it? we have all just had emergency vaccines, majority of people will not had died or had complications from covid!

Not saving vaccinations are needed as they are for vulnerable etc

I got the impression that his colleagues were cringing. I bet a lot of eye rolling goes on behind his back.

Funny, I got the opposite impression that his colleagues (at least the nurses who were originally very quiet when SJ asked them what they thought) were relieved that he spoke up as someone in a higher position that demands more respect. It was harder for SJ to look down on him and pooh-pooh his opinion as someone medically trained.

@toomuchlaundry

If you were jumping in with an answer would you also admit that you had a vested interest and benefitted from people having COVID.

What on earth are you talking about?

The man commented on how he personally doesn't agree with mandatory vaccination for him, as a recovered person with antibodies, with a vaccine which wanes very quickly. He doesn't mention that the trials on both efficacy and safety aren't actually finished yet but we all know that that is the wider context within which he was commenting.

And now people are casting asperations such as yours above.

I hope to god the baying hard of thinking internet mob don't actually manage to get this man out of his job.

It's really fucking disturbing how so many people can't seem to handle any nuance or discussion. Or realism on how poorly the vaccines are performing with regards to longevity and transmission prevention.

It should be possible to question the gov's policy on this issue whether on here or elsewhere without being denounced instantly as an ignorant anti vaxxer. We live in a democracy (allegedly).

I hope to god the baying hard of thinking internet mob don't actually manage to get this man out of his job.

Hopefully the decision will change. Esp since I know and have used Kings and it’s a very good hospital which no doubt needs to keep the staff. He wouldn’t be there if not competent.

for calmly and politely making perfectly reasonable points which are born out in the current data we have on vaccine effectiveness is quite disturbing.

@Beachcomber

But this is the thing, he wasn't. The claims he is making about vaccine effectivness is not true.

I respect his opinion to not be vaccinated, but he is not talking from an informed position as he is quoting things that are false. It's frustrating that Javid is clearly not qualified to sum up the lastest evidence.

I think it is unfair to bring up his private clinic as an argument, although it does have to be said there is a huge precendent for clinicians to publicly speak out against vaccination, gain a lot of publicity, and then use this to promote their non-evidence based businesses which they'll profit from.