Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Original poster

that is one brave doctor

501 replies

MrsLargeEmbodied · 09/01/2022 09:20

to speak about not having the vaccination
www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/08/nhs-doctor-challenges-sajid-javid-over-covid-vaccination-rules

he has had a lot of support

OP posts:
Lilianne2001 · 15/01/2022 16:12

@Tealightsandd

There's nothing caring about refusing to take steps to protect vulnerable patients and get vaccinated.

Beggars can't be choosers? We can't just shrug and accept unsafe and inappropriate staff. That's very much not the answer.

Staff that don't believe in science and medicine working in science and medicine? Confused

It would be funny if it wasn't so shocking.

They're not unsafe and inappropriate. They had the right training and assuming they take other safety measures like PPE and regular testing than the risk of them catching and spreading covid is miniscule. Maybe if vaccine was 100% successful at stopping transmission then your argument would be stronger, but it's not. On the other hand understaffing is the major problem in maternity wards (much bigger then covid) and vaccine mandate is only going to exacerbate it. What's needed is a serious discussion about pros/cons of each scenario and decision based on numbers and facts, rather than politics.
Lilianne2001 · 15/01/2022 16:27

@Tealightsandd

A very shit situation for the poor patients either way. Short staffed or unsafe staff. Hobson's choice.

We urgently need to improve pay, working conditions, and training (plus recruitment practice, eg. I question the skills of someone who doesn't believe in science and medicine).

Continuing with the status quo is clearly unacceptable.

Hospitals should be places of care and safety for vulnerable patients.

It's actually quite interesting that you used the phrase 'Hobson's choice', because it very much applies to vaccine mandate - 'Take it or leave it'.
Belladonna12 · 15/01/2022 17:47

They're not unsafe and inappropriate. They had the right training and assuming they take other safety measures like PPE and regular testing than the risk of them catching and spreading covid is miniscule.

It's really not miniscule, unfortunately at the moment. Maybe if they were wearing FF3 masks it would be but surgical masks don't reduce transmission enough and although lateral flow tests pick up some cases, it's certainly not all. The assumption that patients would rather be treated by an unvaccinated person than have a delay in treatment is certainly not true in all cases but at the moment they don't get a choice. I would be in support of freedom of choice for NHS staff regarding vaccination if patients also were able to choose not to be treated by someone who is unvaccinated.

Tealightsandd · 15/01/2022 17:56

@Belladonna12

They're not unsafe and inappropriate. They had the right training and assuming they take other safety measures like PPE and regular testing than the risk of them catching and spreading covid is miniscule.

It's really not miniscule, unfortunately at the moment. Maybe if they were wearing FF3 masks it would be but surgical masks don't reduce transmission enough and although lateral flow tests pick up some cases, it's certainly not all. The assumption that patients would rather be treated by an unvaccinated person than have a delay in treatment is certainly not true in all cases but at the moment they don't get a choice. I would be in support of freedom of choice for NHS staff regarding vaccination if patients also were able to choose not to be treated by someone who is unvaccinated.

This.
Tealightsandd · 15/01/2022 17:57

It's actually quite interesting that you used the phrase 'Hobson's choice', because it very much applies to vaccine mandate - 'Take it or leave it

Staff who don't trust science and medicine have the freedom and choice to find a more appropriate non science and medicine based job. Whereas vulnerable patients generally do not have the choice over needing to be in hospital, nor usually which staff are 'caring' for them (some electives, and private healthcare excepted).

MarshaBradyo · 15/01/2022 17:59

@Belladonna12

They're not unsafe and inappropriate. They had the right training and assuming they take other safety measures like PPE and regular testing than the risk of them catching and spreading covid is miniscule.

It's really not miniscule, unfortunately at the moment. Maybe if they were wearing FF3 masks it would be but surgical masks don't reduce transmission enough and although lateral flow tests pick up some cases, it's certainly not all. The assumption that patients would rather be treated by an unvaccinated person than have a delay in treatment is certainly not true in all cases but at the moment they don't get a choice. I would be in support of freedom of choice for NHS staff regarding vaccination if patients also were able to choose not to be treated by someone who is unvaccinated.

A delay in treatment doesn’t work if you’re in labour.

Which is the risk and why RCM have said catastrophic impact

Lilianne2001 · 15/01/2022 18:15

@Belladonna12

They're not unsafe and inappropriate. They had the right training and assuming they take other safety measures like PPE and regular testing than the risk of them catching and spreading covid is miniscule.

It's really not miniscule, unfortunately at the moment. Maybe if they were wearing FF3 masks it would be but surgical masks don't reduce transmission enough and although lateral flow tests pick up some cases, it's certainly not all. The assumption that patients would rather be treated by an unvaccinated person than have a delay in treatment is certainly not true in all cases but at the moment they don't get a choice. I would be in support of freedom of choice for NHS staff regarding vaccination if patients also were able to choose not to be treated by someone who is unvaccinated.

It's really not miniscule, unfortunately at the moment - But is it higher than risk of clinical negligence due to understaffing? We vaccinate everyone because the covid risk is higher than risk from potential adverse reaction due to vaccine (which is rare, but can be serious). What we need is the same risk assessment for mandatory vaccination. That's it. It's the only logical solution, but some people only focus on covid risk and react emotionally when you point out that there are other things that must be taken into account when making such decision.
Belladonna12 · 15/01/2022 18:43

A delay in treatment doesn’t work if you’re in labour.

I wasn't thinking necessarily of labour or pregnancy but of all NHS treatment. Midwives don't just see pregnant women when they are in labour for example. Even when in labour, I have heard of people refusing a male midwife so don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to refuse treatment from someone who is unvaccinated.

MarshaBradyo · 15/01/2022 18:45

@Belladonna12

A delay in treatment doesn’t work if you’re in labour.

I wasn't thinking necessarily of labour or pregnancy but of all NHS treatment. Midwives don't just see pregnant women when they are in labour for example. Even when in labour, I have heard of people refusing a male midwife so don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to refuse treatment from someone who is unvaccinated.

Feel free to refuse I have no issue with that.

You might find it tough if in active labour but personal choice.

As long as the midwives are available and not fired I don’t mind what others say no to.

Belladonna12 · 15/01/2022 18:48

It's really not miniscule, unfortunately at the moment - But is it higher than risk of clinical negligence due to understaffing?

We won't know that that there will be understaffing because of the mandate though. Some will get vaccinated rather than lose their jobs and some may be employed from overseas.

Lilianne2001 · 15/01/2022 18:50

@Belladonna12

A delay in treatment doesn’t work if you’re in labour.

I wasn't thinking necessarily of labour or pregnancy but of all NHS treatment. Midwives don't just see pregnant women when they are in labour for example. Even when in labour, I have heard of people refusing a male midwife so don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to refuse treatment from someone who is unvaccinated.

But people can refuse treatment for a number of reasons, there is this thing called 'informed consent', so they have that right already.
Lilianne2001 · 15/01/2022 18:57

@Belladonna12

It's really not miniscule, unfortunately at the moment - But is it higher than risk of clinical negligence due to understaffing?

We won't know that that there will be understaffing because of the mandate though. Some will get vaccinated rather than lose their jobs and some may be employed from overseas.

That's why there should be serious risk assessment done, especially that NHS is already understaffed. And they struggle to recruit from overseas in normal times, I imagine it's even harder during pandemic. Don't forget about all the staff that left due to Brexit, they haven't been replaced yet.
Belladonna12 · 15/01/2022 18:57

Feel free to refuse I have no issue with that.

People can only refuse to be seen if they actually know someone is unvaccinated though. At the moment people are not given the choice.

You might find it tough if in active labour but personal choice.

I'm not pregnant so was talking about NHS treatment in general. If I was pregnant I would refuse all midwife appointments with anyone was unvaccinated (if I knew there were) and ask to see someone who was up to labour. It might be difficult if in labour but I would certainly like to ask if anyone else was available.

Belladonna12 · 15/01/2022 19:00

But people can refuse treatment for a number of reasons, there is this thing called 'informed consent', so they have that right already.

They haven't been given the right to know who is or isn't vaccinated.

Lilianne2001 · 15/01/2022 19:03

@Belladonna12

But people can refuse treatment for a number of reasons, there is this thing called 'informed consent', so they have that right already.

They haven't been given the right to know who is or isn't vaccinated.

Then maybe advocate for that instead of mandatory vaccinate?
Belladonna12 · 15/01/2022 19:07

Then maybe advocate for that instead of mandatory vaccinate?

I don't think what I advocate has much influence!

Nosetickle · 15/01/2022 19:12

The vaccination doesn’t stop transmission, it’s purpose is to prevent serious illness. This doctor has had it and clearly recovered so he knows he’s not vulnerable to it. Therefore what a waste of money to force him to have the vaccination. What will it achieve? If this is going to be a reason to let qualified and experienced Heath professionals go then there NHS is going to be in serious trouble. It’s nonsensical madness to impose this rule.

Belladonna12 · 15/01/2022 19:16

@Nosetickle

The vaccination doesn’t stop transmission, it’s purpose is to prevent serious illness. This doctor has had it and clearly recovered so he knows he’s not vulnerable to it. Therefore what a waste of money to force him to have the vaccination. What will it achieve? If this is going to be a reason to let qualified and experienced Heath professionals go then there NHS is going to be in serious trouble. It’s nonsensical madness to impose this rule.
Wrong. The "purpose" or aim of all vaccines including COVID-19 is to prevent serious illness and transmission. They are better at reducing complications than transmission particularly with omicron but that doesn't mean that they have no effect.
Nosetickle · 15/01/2022 19:24

Ok, fair point but from what I’ve observed it seems to transmit just fine with the vaccine. So from my understanding those who choose not to get vaccinated are taking the risk that they’ll be seriously ill if they get covid (a risk that is surely much reduced if you’ve already had covid and recovered) and the impact their serious illness would have on the nhs. My point still stands though that it’s going to be a nightmare if loads of experienced and qualified staff leave the nhs over this fiasco. I’m very pro vaccine but I still believe in everybody’s right to choose whether they have it or not.

Tealightsandd · 15/01/2022 19:56

delay in treatment doesn’t work if you’re in labour.

Which is the risk and why RCM have said catastrophic impact

An unvaccinated midwife is demonstrating a lack of concern for their vulnerable to Covid pregnant charges. And it sends out an irresponsible message, at at time when there's a campaign to encourage pregnant women to get vaccinated.

But also, given that research shows that unvaccinated people are more likely to get sicker and take longer to recover.... No midwife when in labour... because she/he's off sick.

Lilianne2001 · 15/01/2022 20:17

@Tealightsandd

delay in treatment doesn’t work if you’re in labour.

Which is the risk and why RCM have said catastrophic impact

An unvaccinated midwife is demonstrating a lack of concern for their vulnerable to Covid pregnant charges. And it sends out an irresponsible message, at at time when there's a campaign to encourage pregnant women to get vaccinated.

But also, given that research shows that unvaccinated people are more likely to get sicker and take longer to recover.... No midwife when in labour... because she/he's off sick.

An unvaccinated midwife is demonstrating a lack of concern for their vulnerable to Covid pregnant charges. And it sends out an irresponsible message, at at time when there's a campaign to encourage pregnant women to get vaccinated. But why does it apply to covid only? Pregnant woman are also at risk when they catch flu, yet there is no mandatory flu vaccination. Why is that? Seems like purely political decision.
ouch1000 · 15/01/2022 20:33

@Nosetickle

The vaccination doesn’t stop transmission, it’s purpose is to prevent serious illness. This doctor has had it and clearly recovered so he knows he’s not vulnerable to it. Therefore what a waste of money to force him to have the vaccination. What will it achieve? If this is going to be a reason to let qualified and experienced Heath professionals go then there NHS is going to be in serious trouble. It’s nonsensical madness to impose this rule.
It reduces risk of both reinfection & breakthrough transmission.

This is rationale for mandating it and whilst I don't agree, I don't understand why a doctor would not choose to get vaccinated when it goes against medical advice (and then promote this idea at his place of work with lots of claims that aren't true).

Lilianne2001 · 15/01/2022 20:39

I don't understand why a doctor would not choose to get vaccinated when it goes against medical advice
Healthcare practitioners take lots of decisions that are against medical knowledge and they are not generally healthier than the rest of population.

ouch1000 · 15/01/2022 20:43

@Lilianne2001

I don't understand why a doctor would not choose to get vaccinated when it goes against medical advice Healthcare practitioners take lots of decisions that are against medical knowledge and they are not generally healthier than the rest of population.
True, but this isn't a decision that only impacts their own health.