that is one brave doctor

[MrsLargeEmbodied]

to speak about not having the vaccination
www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/08/nhs-doctor-challenges-sajid-javid-over-covid-vaccination-rules

he has had a lot of support

@Flaxmeadow

I'm not a scientist so please explain how the graph you linked supports your claim that repeated infections can cause damage

The graph shows levels of neutralisation of Omicron. The first column is convalescent. The next columns are vaccines. The higher the dots the better. It is a graph showing effectiveness of the vaccine, not repeat infections

I did not say repeated infections can definitely cause repeated damage. I said they might and that it is a concern under research. We don't know enough about it yet to say one way or the other.

Isn't it better to avoid it or at least be vaccinated against it?

I don't get this idea that getting covid, or repeatedly getting it, is mostly harmless in the long run

I know what the graph shows, but I don't see a link between that and what you have claimed QUOTE Yes there is some evidence that repeated infections can cause damage. Google it. I asked you to provide evidence for this claim and you linked the graph, which isn't relevant. I did not say repeated infections can definitely cause repeated damage , yes you did, see quote above.

The Guardian reporting scientist are calling for better vaccines & omicron is better at “dodging some protections” there should be a choice on taking a vax/booster that is not strong or long lasting. www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jan/12/repeated-covid-boosters-not-viable-strategy-against-new-variants-who-experts-warn

@Chinzia
IMO Freddie Sayers is an excellent interviewer, he asked the doctor all the right questions.

@Tealightsandd

I'm not a scientist so please explain how the graph you linked supports your claim that repeated infections can cause damage

If basic common sense isn't enough for you, I'll try to find the excellent explanation given by an expert doctor that I read recently. Not now, because I'm tired and need to go to bed but I'll have a hunt tomorrow (Note to self to remember to bookmark more often).

I'll try to find the excellent explanation given by an expert doctor that I read recently Please do, but something that PROVES that repeated infections of covid cause damage, because this graph doesn't and that's what the discussion is about. And, if you have nothing interesting to add to the discussion then at least refrain from personal remarks, because it makes you look stupid.

Lilianne2001

I was in a converstion with beachcomber about two different things

1. Vaccines and their effectiveness
2. Repeated infections

I posted the graph for beachcomber because we had been discussing vaccines

But to you. I guess the first evidence would be, that people (unvaxxed) are dying after a second infection. Is that damage enough?

What personal remarks?

I don't know about graphs. What I read was the expert analysis and opinion of one of the, well, experts. An immunologist, if I recall correctly.

Separately, it makes sense of course to be cautious. After all this is a still new disease - and one that is possibly (accidentally) lab escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (and potentially human modified and therefore not wholly natural).

because this graph doesn't and that's what the discussion is about

No the discussion has been about various things

To be clear for all

The graph was about neutralisation of Omicron variant (right coloured dots thingys)
Columns
1st on left convalescent
Other columns are vaccines

Suggesting somebody looks stupid.... Hmmm...now, that might be interpreted as a personal remark. But lucky for you I don't care what an anonymous stranger thinks about me.

Night All 💉😷

[quote scottishtablet23]@Chinzia
IMO Freddie Sayers is an excellent interviewer, he asked the doctor all the right questions.[/quote]
You are so right, who watches news night or morning tv anymore? Better journalists on the YouTube. If anyone has seen Dont Look Up on Netflix, recommend. They do the GMB team, absolute brain rot. Freddie in Austria was an eye opener, he’s genuinely disturbed by the ease people have of of locking up parts of society & denigrating them while they do it.

Whilst I understand his points, he is an anti vaccinator who used the media to get his message out. He was not just stating facts- he is willing to lose his job over his unwillingness to ever be vaccinated.

"The EMA official raised concerns that a strategy of giving boosters every four months hypothetically poses the risk of overloading people's immune systems and leading to fatigue in the population."

www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/eu-drug-regulator-says-more-data-needed-impact-omicron-vaccines-2022-01-11/

@MrsLargeEmbodied

he is fit and healthy, and has not seen fit and healthy people in icu, where he has been working throughout covid

I personally admitted five fit and healthy men in their 40s, that I can remember off the top of my head, to his ICU between 23-26th April 2020. I remember it clearly because it was horrifying.

I assume he must have been off sick with covid that week. Or has Boris Johnson’s memory problems when it comes to facts he doesn’t like.

More scientists making themselves heard:
"Some scientists believe that the evidence shows people are fully vaccinated after just 2 doses and that the so-called boosters now recommended for many people in the US, the United Kingdom, Italy, France, Germany, and Ireland accomplish little more than “polishing the immune response of the lucky ones,” as Giovanna Borsellino, MD, PhD, professor of immunohematology at Rome’s Santa Lucia Foundation, put it in an email. With SARS-CoV-2 “galloping freely” in lower-income countries where few people have been vaccinated, she said, “this is scientifically irresponsible and morally unacceptable.”

@SD1978

Whilst I understand his points, he is an anti vaccinator who used the media to get his message out. He was not just stating facts- he is willing to lose his job over his unwillingness to ever be vaccinated.

No he’s saying a few years of research not twenty on these vaccines that even the WHO experts say “evade some protections” & we need new vaccines is not good enough for him to take it. why force people to take this vaccine when there are calls for new better ones already?

He isn't an antivaxxer. He says the vaccines are good. He's just under the delusion that he's some kind of natural immunity superman. There's a lot of it about

@Flaxmeadow And the data/advice coming out now shows that we have been given all sort of contradictory information about the vaccines. Some of which has come from the unbiased vaccine manufacturers themselves. I suspect the same thing has been done with regard natural immunity in order to play it down so people get vaccinated.

[quote scottishtablet23]If anyone has the time to hear more from the doctor's perspective:

[/quote] Thanks for this. Really interesting to hear this man speak.

[quote howdiditcometothis666]"The EMA official raised concerns that a strategy of giving boosters every four months hypothetically poses the risk of overloading people's immune systems and leading to fatigue in the population."

www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/eu-drug-regulator-says-more-data-needed-impact-omicron-vaccines-2022-01-11/[/quote]
I've just been reading about this.

Seems like a huge shift. I wonder where this will go...

@Flaxmeadow

He isn't an antivaxxer. He says the vaccines are good. He's just under the delusion that he's some kind of natural immunity superman. There's a lot of it about

He is, worked on the frontline throughout, antibodies that show he had it yet he didn’t notice or fall ill, that’s one steely immune system. He went back to work yesterday, patients asking him for selfies, colleagues thanking him, top bloke.

howdiditcometothis666

There is no lasting natural immunity. That ship has sailed.

@Flaxmeadow

howdiditcometothis666

There is no lasting natural immunity. That ship has sailed.

Saying that puts everything else you have said into complete doubt as it is mis-information

@Flaxmeadow

howdiditcometothis666

There is no lasting natural immunity. That ship has sailed.

Dr John Campbell last night going through the data, omicron is less severe & natural immunity works.

Saying that puts everything else you have said into complete doubt as it is mis-information

What? Like when people said the virus was not spread by aerosol particles, that it was all hysteria and misinformation. Or when they said you could only catch it once

Look around you. Look at all the topics on reinfection now. Some people have had this 3 times. Some have been reinfected within weeks. Heck! Some people have even said they've had Omicron twice.

Show me one serious RECENT paper that says we are guaranteed lifelong lasting immunity from the one infection.

Dr John Campbell last night going through the data, omicron is less severe & natural immunity works

It works for a while. If it works for the long term then how do you explain Omicron.

I don't mind Campbell, in small doses (pardon the pun), but he teaches nursing, he is not a virus specialist.

@flaxmeadow This is still being studied by experts as they don't understand exactly how some people do have existing immunity before they even come into contact with Covid 19 . Never mind fully understanding protection after exposure but if you think you do grand .

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33582369/
Results: As measured with INF-γ production, 80% of the convalescent COVID-19 patients, all IgG-RBD seropositive, had a strong T-cell response. However, unexpectedly, 44% of unexposed healthy controls, all IgG-RBD seronegative, had a strong virus-specific T-cell response with the COVID-19 IGRA, probably because of prior exposure to common cold-causing coronaviruses or other viral or microbial antigens.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59207466
But around one-in-10 had signs of being exposed, but never had symptoms, never tested positive and never developed Covid-fighting antibodies in their blood.

Part of their immune system was able to get on top of the virus before it managed to take hold - what's known as an "abortive infection".

www.newscientist.com/article/2296980-covid-resistant-people-point-way-to-universal-coronavirus-vaccine/