that is one brave doctor

[MrsLargeEmbodied]

to speak about not having the vaccination
www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/08/nhs-doctor-challenges-sajid-javid-over-covid-vaccination-rules

he has had a lot of support

@Flaxmeadow

Dr John Campbell last night going through the data, omicron is less severe & natural immunity works

It works for a while. If it works for the long term then how do you explain Omicron.

I don't mind Campbell, in small doses (pardon the pun), but he teaches nursing, he is not a virus specialist.

He’s spent 2 years focused on Covid, he must dream medical stats he’s so immersed, can’t write him off. In the episode posted there’s Indian doctors working independently from the American/Austrian doctors yet they are coming to the same conclusions?

@Flaxmeadow

I haven't had time to read all this thoroughly but lots of interesting info especially with regard the Dr's postion
"Some people who have recovered from COVID-19 might not benefit from COVID-19 vaccination.6, 19 In fact, one study found that previous COVID-19 was associated with increased adverse events following vaccination with the Comirnaty BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine (Pfizer–BioNTech).20 In addition, there are rare reports of serious adverse events following COVID-19 vaccination.21 In Switzerland, residents who can prove they have recovered from a SARS-CoV-2 infection through a positive PCR or other test in the past 12 months are considered equally protected as those who have been fully vaccinated.22"

www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00676-9/fulltext

Sooner or later there won't be covid jabs because the NHS won't be able to fund them forever & what happens to people like this man? Will he be allowed to have his job back?

howdiditcometothis666
To your first reply.

Yes it would be great if they could develop a "universal vaccine' from research into those possible 'abortive infection' immunity people in the control group. But the problem is, there are large numbers of people who won't take any covid vaccine. So we are back to square one 🤷‍♀️

I think natural immunity has an important role to play including innate immunity and potential cross immunity with other Corona viruses.

Having said that, omicron in particular does seem to be breaking through both vaccine induced and natural immunity.

Something which should give us pause for thought IMO.

Some scientists suggested that mass vaccination in the middle of an ongoing pandemic situation could result in the emergence of vaccine resistant mutations as dominant variants as non sterilising vaccines would give such mutations a competitive advantage.

Whether that is the explanation for the highly mutated variant that is omicron is certainly biologically plausible.

And if it turns out to be true then we urgently need a rethink. I know people don't like it when posters refer to covid vaccines as experimental but certainly the vaccination programme is ongoing research and is both novel and unprecedented. It is imperative that the real time data is thoroughly analysed and I hope we are perhaps listening more carefully now to scientists who were previously harshly criticised for predicting an outcome such as omicron.

Care to share any links or papers, @Beachcomber?

It’s certainly an interesting hypothesis, and it chimes with what we do know about natural immunity — which is that it is unreliable and prone to recognising different parts of the virus.

I wonder if the resulting variety conveys better protection in the round. On the face of it, it would seem to be advantageous if one person’s immunity were defeated but that didn’t mean the next person would be.

Even the apparent unreliability might just mask some other advantageous characteristic such as not wasting body resources developing a response when it knows it could mount a much more robust response if actually needed. Sort of encourages a spread, which funnily enough is exactly what we are now consciously doing ourselves.

Random speculation. But it seems really interesting.

Over 60% patients in ICU are unvaccinated and he as a Doctor working in ICU had these opinions.

I saw a really interesting long interview with him here. I thought the interviewer was excellent and asked all the right questions without getting angry and without sycophantically agreeing with him either.

If the link doesn’t work search for Steve James Unherd.

His main point is that he doesn’t agree that the vaccine should be mandated equally to all adults, even thought the risk of covid is drastically different to all depending on risk factors such as age, natural immunity, obesity, health issues.

And the risk of a vaccine is very small but still not zero.

If he has proven natural antibodies and is confident he has immunity given he works with covid patients daily including initially when there was no PPE, why would he choose to vaccinate himself 3 times.

At the beginning when a war-like response was needed it was probably the right thing to have a single simple message, and tell everyone to get vaccinated, as this is the single message that would result in most vulnerable people getting vaccinated and therefore least deaths.

Now perhaps it is time for a bit more nuance and for natural immunity and other risk factors to be allowed to be debated?

@Beachcomber

I think natural immunity has an important role to play including innate immunity and potential cross immunity with other Corona viruses.

Having said that, omicron in particular does seem to be breaking through both vaccine induced and natural immunity.

Something which should give us pause for thought IMO.

Some scientists suggested that mass vaccination in the middle of an ongoing pandemic situation could result in the emergence of vaccine resistant mutations as dominant variants as non sterilising vaccines would give such mutations a competitive advantage.

Whether that is the explanation for the highly mutated variant that is omicron is certainly biologically plausible.

And if it turns out to be true then we urgently need a rethink. I know people don't like it when posters refer to covid vaccines as experimental but certainly the vaccination programme is ongoing research and is both novel and unprecedented. It is imperative that the real time data is thoroughly analysed and I hope we are perhaps listening more carefully now to scientists who were previously harshly criticised for predicting an outcome such as omicron.

Didn't omicron start in an area with low vaccination rates?

Some scientists suggested that mass vaccination in the middle of an ongoing pandemic situation could result in the emergence of vaccine resistant mutations as dominant variants as non sterilising vaccines would give such mutations a competitive advantage.

Who? @Beachcomber

I can't think of anyone credible who has said this, or anyone who has justified it using decent evidence. Vaccines are not antibotics.

(Van Bosche does not count)

Didn't omicron start in an area with low vaccination rates?

The first report that came to public attention was by scientists in Botswana but there is evidence to suggest that omicron was brought into the country from Europe. There is also evidence that omicron had also been detected in the Netherlands before the Botswana report.

www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/12/16/1064856213/the-scientist-in-botswana-who-identified-omicron-was-saddened-by-the-worlds-reac

@leafyygreens

Some scientists suggested that mass vaccination in the middle of an ongoing pandemic situation could result in the emergence of vaccine resistant mutations as dominant variants as non sterilising vaccines would give such mutations a competitive advantage.

Who? @Beachcomber

I can't think of anyone credible who has said this, or anyone who has justified it using decent evidence. Vaccines are not antibotics.

(Van Bosche does not count)

(Van Bosche does not count)

Why not?

(I'm assuming that you are referring to Geert Vanden Bossche)

Brave? Irresponsible IMO. Medical Twitter is fighting back hard. Vast majority think he's a dick.

This is him too... trying to turn off my inner cynic.

www.thebreathlessnessclinic.com/

@Beachcomber

(I'm assuming that you are referring to Geert Vanden Bossche)

Yup, autocorrect issues!

Because he is not qualified to be making the statements that he does, and this becomes very clear when you read into them and realise they are not in any way evidence based.

He gained a wet lab PhD in the 80s (not in epidemiology, vaccine biology, immunology or something relevant) and has not published since 1995. He does not work a research scientist, but in management roles.

He disagreeing with hundred of professors who do actually work in these fields and regularly publish high quality, high impact work in the area, and have a huge amount of expertise. These people are considered leaders in virology, and complete disagree with the idea that mass vaccination will "doom us all" as Vanden Bossche puts it.

@Minecraftlover what you have said, exactly.

Because he is not qualified to be making the statements that he does

@leafyygreens

He is a world renowned vaccine expert with a PhD in virology.

He's worked in vaccine R&D for GSK Biologicals, Novartis Vaccines and Solvay Biologicals. He was Research Program Leader and Head of Adjuvants at Novartis and Research Program Leader on Vaccine Formulation Development and Alternative Deliveries for GSK.

He's worked with Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and with the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization (GAVI) as Senior Ebola Program Manager and he advised WHO on Ebola vaccines. After working for GAVI, he worked at the German Center for Infection Research in Cologne as Head of the Vaccine Development Office.

You might disagree with his hypothesis but saying that he is not qualified to say what he does is ridiculous.

@puppetear

Care to share any links or papers, *@Beachcomber*?

It’s certainly an interesting hypothesis, and it chimes with what we do know about natural immunity — which is that it is unreliable and prone to recognising different parts of the virus.

I wonder if the resulting variety conveys better protection in the round. On the face of it, it would seem to be advantageous if one person’s immunity were defeated but that didn’t mean the next person would be.

Even the apparent unreliability might just mask some other advantageous characteristic such as not wasting body resources developing a response when it knows it could mount a much more robust response if actually needed. Sort of encourages a spread, which funnily enough is exactly what we are now consciously doing ourselves.

Random speculation. But it seems really interesting.

I don't know much about the subject @puppetear but I do think that it is an interesting a plausible concern.

I know of no peer reviewed publications on the subject - I think it is way too controversial for any medical journal to touch it.

This blog post (it's very long) explains the theory.

merogenomics.ca/blog/en/140/Immune-escape-Dr-Geert-Vanden-Bossche-explained

Dr Robert Malone and Dr Jessica Rose seem to be largely in agreement with Dr Vanden Bossche.

Of course all 3 of them are being trashed in the media despite their credentials.

I imagine that only time will tell if there is anything in the theory. I would prefer to think that Vanden Bosshe is wrong but if Omicron turns out to be as vaccine resistant as he predicted I may begin to worry that there is something in his theory.

Beachcomber it's theoretical but here's a research paper from 2015 titled: "Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens"
journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

@Beachcomber

Because he is not qualified to be making the statements that he does

@leafyygreens

He is a world renowned vaccine expert with a PhD in virology.

He's worked in vaccine R&D for GSK Biologicals, Novartis Vaccines and Solvay Biologicals. He was Research Program Leader and Head of Adjuvants at Novartis and Research Program Leader on Vaccine Formulation Development and Alternative Deliveries for GSK.

He's worked with Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and with the Global Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization (GAVI) as Senior Ebola Program Manager and he advised WHO on Ebola vaccines. After working for GAVI, he worked at the German Center for Infection Research in Cologne as Head of the Vaccine Development Office.

You might disagree with his hypothesis but saying that he is not qualified to say what he does is ridiculous.

He is a world renowned vaccine expert with a PhD in virology.

No, he is not, but I already explained this in my post.

He gained a wet lab PhD in the 80s (not in epidemiology, vaccine biology, immunology or something relevant) and has not published since 1995. He does not work a research scientist, but in management roles. You have copied and posted a load of information from somewhere, reeling off the organisations he has worked for, but not as a scientist.

In addition - the claims he are making are not evidence based, so it doesn't really matter. He claims "humanity is doomed" and that vaccination of the general population should not have happened directly contradicts the hundreds of actual experts, professors in virology, immunology and epidemiology.

But the fact that you continue to quote Robert Malone says it all really!

I know of no peer reviewed publications on the subject - I think it is way too controversial for any medical journal to touch it.

Journals like controversial work, what they do not like is deeply flawed science with methodological issues.

And in any case, even if you cannot find a journal to publish it, you can still upload to a pre-print server and disseminate your findings in other ways (oddesee, telegram and bitchute seem to popular with the pseudosciensts).

I think claiming evidence doesn't exist because journals won't publish it, rather than that it doesn't exist is a bit ridiculous @Beachcomber

[quote BelleHathor]Beachcomber it's theoretical but here's a research paper from 2015 titled: "Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens"
journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198[/quote]
Thank you. I will take a look.

Beachcomber it's theoretical but here's a research paper from 2015 titled: "Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens" journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

This has been widely touted by anti-vaccine groups to discourage vaccination, but a theorectical paper unrelated to SARS-COV-2 doesn't hold much weight when we know from multiple strands of evidence that vaccination reduces transmission.

(and SARS-COV-2 isn't "highly virulent" by anyone's definitions, something that people who are anti-vaccination tend to take great pains to point out)