that is one brave doctor

[MrsLargeEmbodied]

to speak about not having the vaccination
www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/08/nhs-doctor-challenges-sajid-javid-over-covid-vaccination-rules

he has had a lot of support

@Belladonna12

If he can't work without a vaccine plus infection why can his colleagues work with a vaccine but no infection?

Err... Because when people get infected with covid they might be really ill themselves plus they may infect other people.

OK so your position is belt and braces for this man but just belt for any of his colleagues who have not been infected.

And the logic behind that is??

OK so your position is belt and braces for this man but just belt for any of his colleagues who have not been infected.

I haven't said anything about "belt and braces". My position is that it is NHS workers should be vaccinated regardless of whether they have had previous infection as the evidence is that vaccination provides better immunity.

And the logic behind that is??

Because it's silly to keep getting infected to maintain immunity if it wanes, there's a chance next infection can be severe or fatal. Logical thing to do is to get vaccinated so you get better immunity.

@Belladonna12

OK so your position is belt and braces for this man but just belt for any of his colleagues who have not been infected.

I haven't said anything about "belt and braces". My position is that it is NHS workers should be vaccinated regardless of whether they have had previous infection as the evidence is that vaccination provides better immunity.

Better immunity than what?

Do you mean that vaccination provides better immunity than infection?

Can you link to the evidence on that?

I understood from your previous post that you were saying that infection + vaccine provides more immunity than just infection or vaccine alone. Which is why I said "belt and braces" approach. Are you now saying that vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity? I'm not sure what your argument is now.

@rainrainraincamedowndowndown

And the logic behind that is??

Because it's silly to keep getting infected to maintain immunity if it wanes, there's a chance next infection can be severe or fatal. Logical thing to do is to get vaccinated so you get better immunity.

But we know that vaccine protection wanes and the vaccines don't do a good job of protecting against infection and transmission.

Is there any evidence of people having repeated worsening to the point of severity or fatality infections?

To say catching covid is better than the vaccine is insanity. The risks from catching covid are much higher than the vaccine and there is ongoing research that repeated infections might cause cumulative damage, not just to the lungs but other organs too. In other words, repeated infections might repeatedly damage you, and your immune system, in some way

I know an antivaxxer, covid denier even, who has just survived serious covid and a hospital stay. If this person gets covid again without being vaxxed then who knows if they can fight it off again

We don't know for sure the long term effects of repeated infection. Even in mild cases. Yes both infection antibodies and vaccine antibodies wane over time but your chance of becoming seriously ill with covid infection is much higher

To say catching covid is better than the vaccine is insanity.

It is also not what I'm saying.

I'm saying what is the logic or where is the evidence to show that recovered people working as HCPs are more of a risk to patients in a healthcare setting than vaccinated people? Especially to the extent of mandating vaccines which have not finished their trials.

I'm saying what is the logic or where is the evidence to show that recovered people working as HCPs are more of a risk to patients in a healthcare setting than vaccinated people?

Because we don't know the cumulative damage to our bodies from repeated infections of covid.

We are now seeing people having had covid, 2 or 3 or even 4 times. What will that do to us in the long run? Even in some mild cases there has been shown to be lung damage or damage to other organs. Someone I know, young and healthy, had covid (probably Alpha) and was told scarring could be seen on the lungs. When asked if it was permanent, the consultant said 'we don't know'

This is a new virus, it's fast mutating and mutating in surprising ways. The Omicron variant has been said by some to have been almost as infectious as measles at times. Then there is the fact that more virus circulating, the more chance of mutation and so more chance of a serious mutation (Delta for example was more serious) .

Isn't it better to be cautious and to have as much vaccine defence as possible?

But what is the logic or where is the compelling science to back up the policy of a state mandate of vaccines for HCPs who have recovered from covid and who have antibodies such as the doctor in question?

Everything you say above is about personal protection. The mandate is supposed to be about protecting vulnerable patients from HCPs.

(Is there any evidence that cumulative damage from repeated infections is a thing or are you just speculating? On the same vein is there any safety data on the cumulative effect of repeated covid vaccination?)

But what is the logic or where is the compelling science to back up the policy of a state mandate of vaccines for HCPs who have recovered from covid and who have antibodies such as the doctor in question?

How do you know he has infection antibodies? Has he said he has? If so, how long will they last?

Most people have no detectable antibodies 6 months after infection. In some cases within weeks. Thats why the NHS antibody result tells you 'negative - you probably have not had covid in the last 6 months'

Yes there is some evidence that repeated infections can cause damage. Google it

@Flaxmeadow

But what is the logic or where is the compelling science to back up the policy of a state mandate of vaccines for HCPs who have recovered from covid and who have antibodies such as the doctor in question?

How do you know he has infection antibodies? Has he said he has? If so, how long will they last?

Most people have no detectable antibodies 6 months after infection. In some cases within weeks. Thats why the NHS antibody result tells you 'negative - you probably have not had covid in the last 6 months'

Yes there is some evidence that repeated infections can cause damage. Google it

How do you know he has infection antibodies? Has he said he has? If so, how long will they last? . He said it himself.

Yes there is some evidence that repeated infections can cause damage. Google it. That's not how the discussion works. If you make a claim then it's on to you to support it.

This was big news a few weeks ago. The first column is convalescent (previous infection)
The next columns are vaccines, Moderna, Pfizer, AstraZeneca, J&J and so on. It shows the mRNA vaccines (M & P) held up well against Omicron

Image from Cameroni et al
Neutralisation of Omicron variant

He said it himself

Did he?

That's not how the discussion works. If you make a claim then it's on to you to support it.

If you insist

If anyone has the time to hear more from the doctor's perspective:

@Flaxmeadow

This was big news a few weeks ago. The first column is convalescent (previous infection) The next columns are vaccines, Moderna, Pfizer, AstraZeneca, J&J and so on. It shows the mRNA vaccines (M & P) held up well against Omicron

Image from Cameroni et al
Neutralisation of Omicron variant

I'm not a scientist so please explain how the graph you linked supports your claim that repeated infections can cause damage

“Why on earth doesn't he just have the vaccine anyway, like the almost 4 billion of us who have already been fully vaccinated?”

Because he doesn’t want to.

I'm not a scientist so please explain how the graph you linked supports your claim that repeated infections can cause damage

If basic common sense isn't enough for you, I'll try to find the excellent explanation given by an expert doctor that I read recently. Not now, because I'm tired and need to go to bed but I'll have a hunt tomorrow (Note to self to remember to bookmark more often).

@Suzi888

“Why on earth doesn't he just have the vaccine anyway, like the almost 4 billion of us who have already been fully vaccinated?”

Because he doesn’t want to.

We all have to do things we don't want to.

He wasn't asked, Sajid Javid was facing a group (I think it was all women but certainly mainly women) and he asked them the question. This doctor was standing behind him, quite clear on TV as Javid turned round when he spoke. So no he wasn't asked a question, he poked his nose in.
The nurses had ample opportunity to reply If they thought the vaccines and mandatory vaccines for NHS staff were a good idea. They didn't.
Their silence certainly didn't give the impression they agreed.
Given that Sajid is pro vaccination, what prevented them from speaking up in favour if that was their opinion.
Maybe they agreed with the doctor but were too afraid to voice their opinions.

I'm not a scientist so please explain how the graph you linked supports your claim that repeated infections can cause damage

The graph shows levels of neutralisation of Omicron. The first column is convalescent. The next columns are vaccines. The higher the dots the better. It is a graph showing effectiveness of the vaccine, not repeat infections

I did not say repeated infections can definitely cause repeated damage. I said they might and that it is a concern under research. We don't know enough about it yet to say one way or the other.

Isn't it better to avoid it or at least be vaccinated against it?

I don't get this idea that getting covid, or repeatedly getting it, is mostly harmless in the long run

A doctor who doesn't believe in science?? Unvaccinated are selfish idiots (those choosing to be unvaccinated). The disease will find them eventually and mutate and affect us all.

Interesting piece in the i today on the individual concerned - inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-trust-distances-itself-from-anti-vax-doctor-who-charges-500-an-hour-at-private-breathlessness-clinic-1393143

[quote scottishtablet23]If anyone has the time to hear more from the doctor's perspective:

[/quote] What a fantastic interview, he’s mild mannered, well informed, committed to making people better & pandemic durable. Everything you want when you turn up at hospital. Worked throughout & the GMB team try to shame him for the pressure he will place on the NHS for leaving, dreadful behaviour.

...to add
So for example, from left the 2nd and 3rd columns are Moderna and Pfizer reacting to Omicron and showing a good response at neutralisation. At the far end columns to the right, you can see Sputnik and I think Sinovac?, are not so good.
Convalescent, first column on the left is previous infection

Maybe they agreed with the doctor but were too afraid to voice their opinions

Or maybe because he is senior to them they didn't want to speak out openly at work against the person who is effectively their boss