Sajid javid

[Worried456776]

news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-sajid-javid-directly-challenged-on-mandatory-coronavirus-jabs-by-unvaccinated-nhs-doctor-12511224

Well done to this docter for standing up for himself.

@riveted1, I think our understanding and position regarding the vaccine will change over time.
When the tails first started, the results looked amazing. 90% protection about moderate and severe disease etc…. If you look at the U.K., it allowed us to move around with more or less no restriction for quite a few months… it weakened the link between I factions and deaths.

All great. Who wouldn’t support that?

But no we have more information. Compare to this summer, we have learnt that the efficacy of the virus wanes over time very quickly. Much much more quickly than anyone anticipated.
The study in SA showed that having had the virus was plenty to protect people from omicron (hence the illness appeared to be mild - only about 25% of people are vaccinated there but most people have had covid)
There is no information in the U.K. that I know off about natural immunity and omicron and it’s comparaison with 2 doses of the vaccines. Do we have the same level of breakthrough infection??

As we go, our evaluation of the vaccine will change. That’s science. And saying ‘well more or less all the scientists agreed it was the way forward’ 6 months ago actually doenst make sense in a world where things change very quickly AND we still much to learn about covid.

Thank you @riveted1.

I’m happy that you’ve read my posts very carefully, even when it is looking at things with a different angle.
It’s reassuring.

@Walking4You

Thank you *@riveted1*.

I’m happy that you’ve read my posts very carefully, even when it is looking at things with a different angle.
It’s reassuring.

It is hard to read posts carefully that state "they are not vaccines"

I don't agree with mandatory vaccination, but I am frustrated by the amount of misinformation people try to justify their choice with.

For the non-HCPs who’ve never been in the receiving end of this, I can do it without (I think) casting aspersions in his character.

He doesn’t appear to be speaking from a position of knowledge. He’s got his scientific understanding of this wrong, and quite obviously in some places of his argument. Possibly because, I’m guessing, this isn’t his speciality.

And it matters because people will see this and assume because he is a doctor he’s an expert and he understands the science. If he’d stuck to non scientific arguments about the morals and opinions he can say whatever he likes. He’s entitled to an opinion.

Was a crap question to spring on them. WTF was Saj thinking?

This is not a vaccine. It’s a prophylactic drug that protects people for about 2~3 months.

Wrong. You might be confusing the vaccine with some of the monoclonal antibodies, which (before omicron) worked quite well prophylactically. I'm not sure if that's still the case for omicron with sotrovimab but given it's in such short supply globally it's not relevant for now.

The CDC has recently said that vaccines once boostered, still do a very good job at protecting against serious illness and death. It's simply that some of the most vulnerable are less protected. Hence the need for those around them particularly HCP do their bit to help protect their patients.

Agreed with all of that @InCahootswithOrwell

Also think it goes a long way to disprove the "we are living in a dystopian state" narrative given he just sprang it on a random sample of HCPs

Ok another way to say it is that it’s a vaccine but an extremely crap vaccine.

It doesn’t stop the illness unlike the polio vaccine.
It doesn’t last more than 2~3 months unlike … well all the other vaccines we have.

The best it’s doing (and I appreciate it’s already a lot) is to protect you for 2~3 months.
That’s not what I expect from a proper vaccine and I doubt it would have been approved if we weren’t in the middle of the pandemic.

The issue i have is to talk about a vaccine, treat it like a vaccine when it doesn’t give the protection a vaccine normally gives.
A drug/medication/whatever name you want to use that is only protecting you for 3 months is a prophylactic drug. So let’s treat it like this and then review how we want to handle it

(For full disclosure to avoid the ‘oh an anti vaxxer’ I’ve had the two jabs and the booster…)

I’m conflicted.

I do not agree with mandatory vaccination.
I fully support the covid vaccine (have been a volunteer at vaccine clinics since Jan 2021) & have had my 3.

I do not want to sack a single NHS worker at any level because they haven’t had the vaccine.

I really want medics on the front line to be as protected as they can be as so many seem to have died (according to news reports I’ve read over the last few years) of covid.

I don’t agree with his thinking.

I think Saj was a bit mad to ask the question!

I really hope the legal side of the process doesn’t go through. But equally vaccine uptake did increase in other countries when made mandatory which i see as a good thing.

I think he raises an interesting point. Has he got higher antibodies than someone who is triple-vacc'd? I would doubt it, but I would love to know.

As Javid responded "we listen to the experts who are specialists"
The doc is not an immunologist. He's an anaesthetist. He knows his own field. Yes, entitled to his view but most of what he was saying is not factually correct. The science - and there are plenty of published papers now on this - certainly doesn't show we need vaccinating every month.

@Walking4You

again - issues with your post

the vaccine is not a medication or a drug. A lot of groups refer to it as such as this allows them to (falsely) play up the idea of side effects and long term effects, which are more complex with these types of interventions, and not relevant to vaccines.

It does not only offer protection for 2-3 months, and we have good evidence demonstrating this. Protection does not wane to 0%.

We will gradually get to a point, after repeated exposure to infection when vaccination of most people is not needed to control spread and stop coronavirus overwhelming services. We are not there yet.

It's not an extremely crap vaccine.

I just posted what the CDC recently had to say about it.

With a booster (because there's a new variant) it still works very well for the majority of people in preventing serious illness and death.

It's been widely reported the fact that the unvaccinated and also the partially vaccinated proportionally much more likely to end up being hospitalised than the fully vaccinated.

Of course there might be a need for boosters. It's nothing new with some vaccines. We have an annual flu jab.

But particularly with SARS-COV-2 this is a new disease. One that is very likely lab escaped (and possibly human modified - and therefore not wholly natural). It would be incredibly foolish to fail to take all easy and simple precautions. including (but, for now not only) being fully vaccinated.

@GirlInACountrySong

i doubt they will start sacking medical staff

they are struggling enough as it is!

My friend's a nurse and has been told he'll lose his job in April if he doesn't get vaccinated.

The anaesthesist’s ‘facts’ were wrong.

And when it's a HCP working with some highly vulnerable patients it is not only foolish, it is also negligent.

@Tealightsandd

And when it's a HCP working with some highly vulnerable patients it is not only foolish, it is also negligent.

Yes - to be in the ICU and oppose coronavirus vaccination is crazy

I wonder what he would say about the scenario (which will happen) when his immunity from infection wanes to the point where reinfection is imminent in a high exposure environment. Would he still be saying no?

That dr is a rare one. Every other medic I know is pro the vaccine. The vaccine has saved lives.
I think that dr is irresponsible

I agree.
Most doctors wouldn’t be doctors if they disagreed with administering vaccinations.

There are of course some professionals who think these rare things and don’t represent the majority.
There are also doctors that get struck off. I believe it was a doctor who told people that autism was a result of vaccinations and people believed him because he was a doctor.

I personally don’t go on the opinion of a couple people but what the majority of professionals agree on.

You can tell it’s a rare situation as it’s in a news report and there’s a thread about it.

Good article from Emily Sheffield here.

www.standard.co.uk/comment/unvaccinated-lockdowns-novak-djokovic-london-covid-b975487.html

Although I disagree with this doctor, I also don’t believe in forced vaccinations and think there needs to be some system where they should only be allowed to work with people who aren’t already vulnerable.

It's actually deeply worrying (and rather baffling) that a doctor doesn't trust in science and medicine

I highly doubt he doesn’t trust in medicine somehow, considering he’s a fucking consultant anaesthetist. He doesn’t want one particular medical intervention, clinical assessments actually require a degree of nuance and something tells me he’s probably fairly adept at making pharmacological decisions.

Eh? So you have to catch Covid to get antibodies instead of vaccination? And you have to keep on catching it so you maintain antibodies?

Well done to this doctor. If you ever read this then I thank you for your courage and integrity.

I have no doubt that the reason this guy has antibodies in the first place is because he risked his life saving other people throughout the worst of this pandemic. How anyone can advocate firing him now is beyond me.

Choices do have consequences and if the goverment really do choose to get rid of 100,000+ NHS staff in April then God help all of us.

@IrrelevantNameChange

It's actually deeply worrying (and rather baffling) that a doctor doesn't trust in science and medicine

I highly doubt he doesn’t trust in medicine somehow, considering he’s a fucking consultant anaesthetist. He doesn’t want one particular medical intervention, clinical assessments actually require a degree of nuance and something tells me he’s probably fairly adept at making pharmacological decisions.

He's an anaesthesist, not a virologist. Vaccines aren't his area of expertise. You'd think though that he would have faith in his colleagues who do have the more appropriate knowledge.

There's no integrity in putting the most vulnerable at unnecessary extra risk. Very much the opposite.

If he had integrity he wouldn't be working in science and medicine when he doesn't trust science and medicine.