I’m concerned that Mumsnet are not doing enough to tackle misinformation

[Beadebaser]

I might end up getting a ban, or my thread deleted. But I am concerned. I’ve seen more anti-vaxx material discussed here than on any other social media platform.

And the way it is discussed concerns me. A potentially vulnerable person poses a question - and then others appear to ‘jump’ on this post giving advice that is contrary to the NHS guidelines.
I’m all for a debate in ‘normal’ times - but while things are pretty critical for the NHS/schools - shouldn’t we be doing all we can to support them and each other?
Yesterday I reported a post explaining in detail to Mumsnet why it was misinformation. They didn’t respond.
I’ve had a thread removed already saying I’d be messaged personally. I wasn’t contacted.
Mumsnet have a duty of care to their readers. Misinformation and fake news is an online harm.

Major deja vu......

Wondered where the first thread of this ilk went.....

And I see we've just had the "far right" shoehorned in....

And this sort of simpering thread about protecting the vulnerable just puts me in mind of those Harry Enfield sketches...... " Women! Know your place!"

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Major deja vu......

Wondered where the first thread of this ilk went.....

And I see we've just had the "far right" shoehorned in....

Truth hurts. If you were on the thread yesterday, then you'll have seen who the 2 groups who a vulnerable woman was being encouraged to join up with, actually are. Trust me, far right is the least offensive thing about them.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

And this sort of simpering thread about protecting the vulnerable just puts me in mind of those Harry Enfield sketches...... " Women! Know your place!"

What kind of world do you live in where you think "protect the vulnerable" is somehow wrong?

MN were very wise to create this section. All the anti vaxxers are concentrated on here. It’s left the rest of MN to carry on as normal.

Oh you know, a world where adults can discuss controversial subjects, be offered factual counter arguments etc without being accused of being on the wrong side of history and without one set of people assuming others are too fragile to be encouraged in actual critical thinking.... you know, the world before Covid and a plethora of other controversial subjects.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar......

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Oh you know, a world where adults can discuss controversial subjects, be offered factual counter arguments etc without being accused of being on the wrong side of history and without one set of people assuming others are too fragile to be encouraged in actual critical thinking.... you know, the world before Covid and a plethora of other controversial subjects.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar......

Controversial subjects are never far away from MN And I'm sure most of us would welcome any factual counter arguments. We may be waiting a while though. So, while we do, why do you think people who think protecting the vulnerable are "simpering" (your words)

I agree with you. But Facebook is definitely rife with this too. I suppose where there’s a platform then people will use it. I agree though that the hosts should respond to your questions. And should monitor foolishness.

@Notthemessiah

Linking to a thread or two that contains misinformation and that hasn't been taken down would probably strengthen your case.

I doubt you can though, because I very much suspect that your version of misinformation is simply other people disagreeing with your opinion.

Took me 2 seconds to find a someone linking to an antivax site.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2876908-Kids-vaccinations-I-would-like-the-view-from-mothers?pg=8

vaccine impact. tut tut

MN is full of AV bullshit.
Whether its sneaky stuff just constantly questioning facts or outright bullshit that is blatantly so.

@Thievesoil

Most of the theories branded as “conspiracy” and frequently censored have come true. From “vaccines are for adults only” to “it’s not a man made virus” to vaccine passports. Even clotting and period concerns were dismissed

The more you censor, the more you divide.

If you have a more honest debate you carry more with you.

The latest so called anti vacc rhetoric relates to data in hospitals. Does anyone have any idea about the realities of with/if/boostered or not?

What does “anti vacc” even mean? I think we would encourage more vulnerable people to take it if we had more open debates

Have they .... I can't think of a single Covid conspiracy thats come true.

@SLH2003 Well they said the Great Reset was coming and it has been initiated by the World Economic Forum.(WEF) who are a very powerful and influential group of people They questioned the fact that the WEF and the Bill Gates ran a live simulation exercise to prepare for a pandemic in October 2019. Rich males telling us what to do www.weforum.org/great-reset/

WEF links to the Clintons - Chelsea Clinton's good friend and co author Devi Sridhar who is also on the Global Agenda Council of The World Economic Forum. Devi Sridhar who is now an advisor to the Scottish govt

Fauci links to the gain of function experiments in Corona virus The conflict of interest by the person who headed the WHO investigation into the Wuhan lab.
FB not allowing discussion of the virus coming from the Wuhan lab. FB not allowing discussion on the BMJ investigation into Pfizer.

Vaccine passports being implemented after saying they would not.

I am skimming over all this and haven't looked deeply into it myself but I can see justification for skepticism.

Oh and the Gates microchipping conspiracy came from him wanting to tattoo children who had been vaccinated in countries with poor record keeping. Scientists were debating how ethical it was. Obviously it grew legs but there was a grain of truth there

[quote Cherryblossoms85]@riveted1Actually the periods thing is exactly where misinformation becomes very subjective. People who raised this were routinely accused of spreading misinformation, conspiracy theories etc. And now it's been officially confirmed as a side effect, after a formal study confirmed it does seem quite common. Whether it matters or not is a different question, and that's where misinformation usually comes in - wild claims like it impacting your fertility forever (which is hilarious when you think about it, after all, being pregnant also affects periods :-)).

but six months ago, people who even mentioned this had happened to them were vilified.[/quote]
No they weren't - I find this kind of posting really strange.

The MHRA and others stated (correctly) that at the time there wasn't enough evidence to confirm a causal link and that investigations were ongoing.

It is now established, as we have more evidence, that there is.

This is a quote from WEF and it certainly makes me feel pretty insignificant in the global world "There is an urgent need for global stakeholders to cooperate in simultaneously managing the direct consequences of the COVID-19 crisis. To improve the state of the world, the World Economic Forum is starting The Great Reset initiative."

@RampantIvy

I find it surprising that some posters are so exercised by other people's choices

I think that it is because some posters feel that some people's choices take away their own choices.

I don't think it's others choices that people are frustrated by, more that that no-one should be coerced into not being vaccinated because of misinformation, or suffering from anxiety because they already have been.

MN is full of fake claims designed to scare people from being vaccinated (or take non-effective treatments like HCQ and ivermectin etc) and that's the kind of post that needs to be removed. Misinformation is harmful and costs lives.

In the context of this thread, as opposed to genuinely protecting the vulnerable from harm, calls for regulation are absolutely a cover for censorship and suppression of debate. In the context if this thread, how do you define the vulnerable? Could we all be considered vulnerable depending on environmental and cultural and traumatic experience? Should we all be protected from subject matter which others consider harmful? Or are we adults, who can be reasoned with, debated with, encouraged or discouraged from accepting any view and offered the opportunity to draw their own conclusions?

As others have said, there are plenty of people on here who will rebut false information very eloquently - and not in a way that necessarily belittles people asking questions or assumes their confusion is in bad faith.

Yelling "right wing conspiracy nut" every time someone points out some of the oddness that has gone on throughout the pandemic simply entrenches division and also confirms in some peoples minds that they are being fed particular narratives for nefarious purposes.

It is no lie that global corporations hold power, sway and influence over states, discussing who, why, how and whether or not there is any end game, not just around Covid but many other issues should not be controversial.

Have they .... I can't think of a single Covid conspiracy thats come true.

Well, we have vaccine passports here in France so that's one that's come true, and the theory that the virus escaped from the lab in Wuhan is looking more and more plausible. We'll just have to wait and see if the big reset happens or not!

As others have said, there are plenty of people on here who will rebut false information very eloquently - and not in a way that necessarily belittles people asking questions or assumes their confusion is in bad faith.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

There aren't enough people to rebut the floods of misinformation that are all over the coronavirus board. Many well qualified posters who spent a fair bit of time doing this have disappeared because it's just a drop in the ocean and you see the same claims repeated time after time. There's also a fair amount of abuse and one excellent poster recently commented she had to stop because it wasn't good for her MH. I was actually PM-ed by someone a while back, asking if I'd been getting hate messages because she had been recieving them due to her (factual, non-offensive) posts about misinformation regarding vaccination in children and teens. Obviously you only have my word for this..for what it's worth.

I completely agree with most of your points and agree that discussion needs to be free, but that isn't the same thing as allowing people to repeat things that directly cause harm. It's also worth bearing in mind that no-one is entitled to a MN account and it's their call as to what they want hosted on their website.

As I said before, I don't necessarily think de-platforming people/anti-vaccine groups is actually that helpful, and it just tends to fuel the cries of censorship, but I'm not sure what the alternative is. Robert Malone just had his twitter account removed, and I have to admit I breathed a sigh of relief because the amount of damage he has done is immense.

p.s., I hope everything is going ok with your shop opening :)

I bet when the first women claimed they had weird things happening to their periods post-vaccination they were shot down as anti-vaxxers. Until the numbers became too great to ignore.

People having a different opinion to you does not = disinformation.

There is a big difference between crazy conspiracy theories like the vaccine will put a nano-gene in you, or that covid is caused by 5G masts; and making the clear and objectively verifiable claim that the vaccine has killed some people.

@samthebordercollie

Have they .... I can't think of a single Covid conspiracy thats come true.

Well, we have vaccine passports here in France so that's one that's come true, and the theory that the virus escaped from the lab in Wuhan is looking more and more plausible. We'll just have to wait and see if the big reset happens or not!

So that's nothing then. I suggest you look up the definition of conspiracy theory.

@DancyNancy

I find mumsnet to be the opposite of what you see OP. It's extremely pro vaccine to the point that no one is allowed to be nervous about the vaccine/repeated vaccines without being called antivaxx, or deemed stupid or uneducated. I would strongly oppose shutting down discussions. People are allowed to question things and discuss them. There is a variety of opinions here and plenty of counter arguments for every argument......just as a discussion forum should be. I've yet to see a covid thread where there isn't a majority pro vaccine list of replies

Agreed

@samyeagar
Saying you personally have experienced heart palpitations is a lived fact, true. Saying you have been medically diagnosed with a heart arrhythmia by an ECG or other recognised diagnostic test, would add more substance to that fact, saying you have been diagnosed with one of the very rare conditions that are myocarditis or pericarditis, and that your cardiac consultant confirmed that they believed any of these new conditions was as a result of the vaccine, would be a very substantial fact.
As with everything in life there are facts and facts, I can say as a fact that at 2 degrees I do not feel cold and so don't feel the need to wear a coat, you might say as a fact, that that it is very cold and you need to wrap up in multiple layers to feel warm. Neither of us would be wrong with our lived facts, but neither are we going state as a fact that a newborn infant will not come to any harm if left outside at that temperature with just a vest on.

[quote Wrongkindofovercoat]@samyeagar
Saying you personally have experienced heart palpitations is a lived fact, true. Saying you have been medically diagnosed with a heart arrhythmia by an ECG or other recognised diagnostic test, would add more substance to that fact, saying you have been diagnosed with one of the very rare conditions that are myocarditis or pericarditis, and that your cardiac consultant confirmed that they believed any of these new conditions was as a result of the vaccine, would be a very substantial fact.
As with everything in life there are facts and facts, I can say as a fact that at 2 degrees I do not feel cold and so don't feel the need to wear a coat, you might say as a fact, that that it is very cold and you need to wrap up in multiple layers to feel warm. Neither of us would be wrong with our lived facts, but neither are we going state as a fact that a newborn infant will not come to any harm if left outside at that temperature with just a vest on.[/quote]
While that is all true, the situation I was describing was that I have been labelled anti-vax, been accused of spreading misinformation simply by stating my lived experience without putting any pro or con value to it. I am positive I am not nearly alone in being shamed in this way.

The thing is, there is a not small, not silent group of people who view anything that does not fit a rigid black and white view as a threat to their view that they must stamp out.

Hell, I have received backlash for stating that while there is no question that the vaccine makes covid transmission less likely, that does not mean it makes it unlikley. That is an objective science based fact, yet to some, that is dangerous misinformation.

Another thing regularly seen here is the overplaying the effectiveness of the vaccine, combined with scapegoating unvaccinated people. That is a dangerous mischaracterization as well, as it could lead to a false sense of security in some people

People say they have different 'opinions' and are 'entitled' to them - but they are not their opinions, they are parroting anti-science they have absorbed from peddlers of misinformation.

People are dying because they absorb these freely shared 'opinions'.