The unvaccinated

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I am genuinely worried about unvaccinated people.

I live in a large northern city. In my naice area 93% of people aged 12+ have have had the first dose of vaccine, 86% the second dose and 74% on boosters.

The areas where there is the least vaccine uptake in my city, is in poorer area's where 33% have the vaccine, these are areas where overall health is poor, education is poor and general outcomes are poor. Despite covid.

I don’t want to start a class war with covid, but it’s really getting hard to ignore that we need to find a way to stop conspiracy theories on Facebook and the like actually targeting people who might not be educated enough to understand what they are reading/seeing.

I say all of this and being gentle.

If you choose not to have the vaccine - it is your choice. However those who feel the need to relentlessly post on here to justify your choice need to get out more (once the pandemic is over). A lack of trust in the government is understandable. The misinterpretation of scientific data unfortunate. The need for an anti-vax identity is just sad.

@onlychildhamster yes, public transport is technically possible but there is only one vaccine centre in the town, and it is 2 bus rides that don't connect well so about 90 minutes each way, plus queueing at the centre. 20 min drive if you have a car. Most people work in minimum wage jobs or have very young children and can't have that much time off, or don't have someone to look after the kids for that long, or are too infirm to manage that journey. Add to that all the social media 'it's just a cold' nonsense and no wonder people aren't bothering with the effort it takes to get a vaccine.
It's been really badly thought through in terms of access for poorer areas.

We all have the same choice and I don’t pity anyone for exercising the right to choose for themselves. I’m sure you’re aware that many unvaccinated people will probably be feeling the same sympathy for you.

I’m fully vaccinated. I would hate for anyone to debate my decision because it was based on my own circumstances. I wouldn’t dream of judging anyone else’s choice as they made it for their own reasons which are none of my business. I can’t understand why we have became so unable to live and let live recently. You do you and leave ‘the unvaccinated’ to it.

@JufusMum

Not being goady in any way (I am vaxxed, work for the NHS), but I know loads, and I mean loads of triple vaxxed people who are currently covid positive. I also know a lot of unvaxxed people more than thirty - not one of them has tested positive for covid. Are they just very lucky?

If they haven't been vaccinated I can't imagine they'll bother to test themselves.

If you choose not to have the vaccine - it is your choice. However those who feel the need to relentlessly post on here to justify your choice need to get out more (once the pandemic is over).

By the same token shall we stop having posts about the unvaccinated, as I find it's the vaccinated who relentlessly post on here about the unvaccinated.

I am fully vaccinated I don't care if person sat next to me isn't as I am assuming mine works, I don't care if someone hasnt.

If they haven't been vaccinated I can't imagine they'll bother to test themselves.

Not this again testing and vaccines are two different things, you have to be dumb to conflate the two.

[quote thepeopleversuswork]@ThinWomansBrain

I'm aware that not all highly-trained scientists are in agreement.

My point was that the opinions of people with literally no scientific education are given intellectual parity with epidemiologists, virologists etc.

People seem unwilling to accept that they are not qualified to take positions on the effectiveness of vaccines and the risk profiles.[/quote]
Actually, they broadly are. In agreement, that is.

There are a few outliers, as there always are in such matters, and these tend to be in the news a lot because that is their raison d'etre – they want to be seen and heard. Giving these few loud voices an equivalence with the vast majority of epidemiologists and virologists who are pro-vaccine is nonsense.

DD2 has a recently completed MSc in control of infectious diseases from a world-leading university. None, and I do mean none, of her lecturers, tutors, supervisors or fellow students are anti-vaccine.

@MamanSparkles it doesn't make sense though; London has the highest percentage of unvaccinated people. London has public transport. They were even offering free uber rides at one point. One thing is that poor londoners tend to work more than 1 job i.e. my office cleaner doesn't just clean offices, she also works at superdrug and she lives in harrow which is in zone 5; so between commute and kids, its a wonder she has any spare time. my company allows me to go off any time I want if I have a vaccine appointment probably not the same in a minimum wage service job with unsociable hours. They should force all employers to give their employees paid time off if they can show proof of vaccine appointments.

At my synagogue's asylum seekers drop in, they always had some people (supervised by someone with a DBS) to care for the kids while the asylum seekers collected their food and shopped at the clothes bank. I used to volunteer to care for the kids and i swear looking after 3 little kids under the age of 5 over the course of 3 hours was one of the reasons why I decided I would have an only child; it is more tiring than a full day at the office! But they never had any problems getting volunteers to care for the kids, they are unbelievably cute. I am sure the government can arrange something like that if my synagogue can.

@doublemonkey because the point is, just because 1200 people died within 90 days does not prove they are a ‘vaccine death’ it proves they happened to die within 90 days after receiving the vaccine, but it’s not unheard of for that amount of people to die in that period anyway, it happens all the time! And although not every covid death is primarily from covid, other deaths are occurring on top of covid, in their thousands, as normal, so we have far more excess deaths than would normally be expected.

I don’t understand why people are not understanding things like this? I’m starting to think it’s deliberate ignorance.

Either that or people don’t posses rational thought skills. Humans are notoriously poor at analysing risk.

Sigh...

My highly intelligent, adult DS is one of 'the unvaccinated'. Do I disagree with his choices? Yes! Have I tried to encourage him to have it? Yes! Do I respect his right to choose what goes into his body? Absolutely!!

FWIW - he's an athlete who will also not take so much as a paracetomol. I wish we'd all stop the 'us and them' narrative!

[quote Clumsyvolcano]@doublemonkey because the point is, just because 1200 people died within 90 days does not prove they are a ‘vaccine death’ it proves they happened to die within 90 days after receiving the vaccine, but it’s not unheard of for that amount of people to die in that period anyway, it happens all the time! And although not every covid death is primarily from covid, other deaths are occurring on top of covid, in their thousands, as normal, so we have far more excess deaths than would normally be expected.

I don’t understand why people are not understanding things like this? I’m starting to think it’s deliberate ignorance.

Either that or people don’t posses rational thought skills. Humans are notoriously poor at analysing risk.[/quote]
We are in agreement! People die all the time -this is exactly the point I'm making.

Wouldn't it be helpful therefore, to give more data on the stats for the people who are 'dying with covid'? Context is everything and the constant fear mongering is unhelpful.

I live in a poor Northern town and have a degree in a science related subject.
I don't want any vaccines but that's not to say I haven't been concerned enough to not sit around doing nothing... There is plenty people can do to give themselves better odds... I've lost the stone in weight that I needed to lose to get me comfortable within my BMI, cleaned my diet right up after watching and reading what some cardiologists and diabetes experts had to say and focused on vitamin d levels. No need to worry about me. I just sailed through....

I'm not interested in anyone elses decision, other than I want them to stay well and I don't want to feel that they'd want to force their choice on me.

My highly intelligent, adult DS is one of 'the unvaccinated'. Do I disagree with his choices? Yes! Have I tried to encourage him to have it? Yes! Do I respect his right to choose what goes into his body? Absolutely!!
FWIW - he's an athlete

Lol whatever side you fall this is a mad post

My highly intelligent althete son

Please don’t worry about us.. we’re fine.

What’s more worrying is that people are putting their children forward for this vaccine. Yes I have had covid, twice (my immune system fought it off) and I’ve also seen the horrific side effects from the vaccine at work.

We were good enough then but we’re not good enough now without a vaccine.. oh wait.. yes we are, it’s after winter pressures in April that they’ll fire us. All 100k of us expected

@POPCORNx all the people who died of Covid had an immune system too - do you think they didn’t?

I love this “my immune system is good enough” argument. It’s brilliantly ridiculous.

Why is it only anti-vaxxers whose hairdresser’s second cousin’s colleague had a bad reaction to the vaccine? I don’t know anybody who knows anybody who had a bad reaction. But then again I try to avoid stupid people.

I know someone personally, who died as a direct result of the vaccine.
I’m still vaccinated.

Because I also know someone personally who was killed in a car crash
I still drive

@POPCORNx

Please don’t worry about us.. we’re fine.

What’s more worrying is that people are putting their children forward for this vaccine. Yes I have had covid, twice (my immune system fought it off) and I’ve also seen the horrific side effects from the vaccine at work.

We were good enough then but we’re not good enough now without a vaccine.. oh wait.. yes we are, it’s after winter pressures in April that they’ll fire us. All 100k of us expected

Are you NHS? Surely then you've also seen the horrific side effects of Covid?

Are you NHS? Surely then you've also seen the horrific side effects of Covid?

There is 1.5 million people work for the NHS, a very large number of staff will not have been on a covid ward or dealing with covid. We need to move away from the entire NHS deals with covid it doesn't.

Ah the bodily autonomous whose bodies still live in a non autonomous society
People who are unvaccinated who choose to believe it only affects them are delusional. Unvaccinated people catch the virus more easily, pass it on more easily and are more likely to take up health resources if they get v sick. They are also a nice breeding ground for new variants. They also stop us achieving some sort of herd immunity through vaccination so that those who for whom vaccines don't offer much protection can be protected. So you can have your bodily autonomy but you aren't exactly a great member of society in which you live. So quite selfish really.

[quote BeMoreGoldfish]@InexperiencedDogOwner do you feel the same way about all vaccinations out of interest?

I also have a Masters but it's not in science so I'm not sure how that's relevant! The Facebook experts are far more anti-vax than pro-vax too so again, not really relevant.

Anyway, vaccinations have been an absolute gamechanger in the history of the human race - they have saved countless millions of lives and continue to do so. Social media has not.[/quote]
No I'm not against all vaccines, myself and my children have had all others. This one however cannot be classed as a true vaccine as it does not give you immunity against the virus. The definition of a vaccine has been changed to suit. They have even said that the latest booster only works for a matter of weeks and then you will need another as protection is so low after 12 weeks. Why do you think the government has bought so many doses? It's just going to be jab after jab after jab.

IF this vaccine worked (I agree it should be used for at risk groups and over 50s as benefit exceeds risk in these groups) then I would consider having it IF the manufacturer accepts liability for any damages (which they currently do not) and IF they were transparent with their data collection (they want to keep it hidden for 55 years before release). Doesn't exactly inspire you with confidence does it? Not to mention Pfizer has a very bad reputation previously.

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-pfizer-vaccine-legal-indemnity-safety-ministers-b1765124.html

You can say that it's the low income, dumb, only educated of the University of Facebook types who've been brainwashed.

The elephant in the room is the very low take up in many ethnic minorities.

@InexperiencedDogOwner I’m utterly baffled by your definition of a true vaccine - no vaccine against anything ever gives a guarantee of 100% efficacy. Not measles, flu, HPV, anything. So your definition, if accepted, means no true vaccines exist.

This just isn’t true.

The stats on the rate of transmission for vaccinated people are overwhelmingly positive. It cuts transmission rates significantly, it cuts illness significantly and it cuts your chances of being hospitalised significantly.

It is a true vaccine in every sense of the word.

Excellent post @BeMoreGoldfish

This is such a problem due to the misinformation spouted online . It creates more anti vaxxers because they believe that vacccination should be a magic bullet and 100% effective. And because it isn't they dismiss it as being worthless.

IMO all these people need educating in probability and risk.

How the definition of a vaccine has changed to suit the narrative...