Govt plans re unvaccinated feels like a change is afoot

[whenwillthemadnessend]

Anyone noticed the govt and news sources seem to be covering more and more stories regarding the unvaccinated (by choice)
I feel they might be ramping up support for restrictions for unvaccinated people.
It's feel very much like propaganda and warm up the masses.
Anyone agree or noticed this in the last 3/4 days?

@BarleyMop

If it’s a choice between restrictions for everyone/a lockdown, or restrictions for unvaccinated people, I’d happily vote restrictions for the unvaccinated. We all want to get back to normal as soon as we can.

What about if that includes double vaccinated people too because two doses aren’t as effective at preventing infection from omicron? And then triple vaccinated (as Israel have done)? See where this goes?

@BarleyMop we would never deny treatment through choice if someone has a good outcome/ choice
That would never happen as most nurses / drs would walk out under those circumstances

** good outcome/ chance

[quote worriedatthemoment]@IcedPurple but they must be doing it for a reason and as neither you or I have all the data all the modelling etc, there will be reasons we just might not be privy to them
My comment was more for so long everyone has compared us until we bring something in that doesn't suit them[/quote]
Exactly. We don't have the relevant data. Nobody does, as it's a fluid situation.

That's why I think the 'other people are doing it so we should too' line of reasoning is flawed. We really have very little idea if 'vaccine passports' are of much benefit, and that's leaving aside the societal implications of introducing them.

@HelloMissus

flowerlane not really. Fat people don’t get to skip their taxes, despite not being able to access various treatments. Ditto smokers and drinkers (who arguably pay more tax than the average punter).

But they are not denied treatment at all are they? They may have to stop drinking or loose weight to get medical treatment but they are not completely denied treatment, they have the option to get treatment by changing their lifestyle with out having a medical injections first. Where as denying the unvaccinated treatment until they have injections (currently at number 3) before being entitled to treatment is a major difference.

@IcedPurple I don't see the issue with them if its a vaccine passport or test then no one is denied anything
For years to holiday in certain countries you have had to have xyz injection etc

@Flowerlane i don't think anyone will be denied treatment
Medical staff would not agree with ths for a start

@the80sweregreat

I'm sure that big businesses such as Tesco etc will be ' exempt' from asking for these passports as they know that to check every single person going into their stores would be unworkable and they wouldn't want the expense of having to hire security to man it all either.

they had security to stop too many people being in the store at a time though - they probably use agencies and can just get them back

Which vaccine app are people using, on iPhone? I can only see one, but it needs a barcode or QR code & I don’t have one, only my vaccine batch numbers, date taken, & my personal info etc. How are people getting the barcode? Or is there a different app?

[quote worriedatthemoment]@IcedPurple I don't see the issue with them if its a vaccine passport or test then no one is denied anything
For years to holiday in certain countries you have had to have xyz injection etc [/quote]
Needing a vaccination to enter one of the relatively small handful of countries which required them is not at all the same thing as needing proof of vaccination to go shopping or have a coffee.

For the record, I'm fully vaccinated.

I recently had "elective" surgery to reduce my risk of ovarian cancer in the future.

I am also unvaccinated.

My mental gymnastics as I tried to square away this conundrum left me genuinely nauseous. But eventually it came down to the fact that my risk of ovarian cancer is personally provable, while my risk from Covid is not. I had a severe reaction to a measles vaccine as a child, and could only have other vaccines if I took anti-histamines in advance. I wasn't called for the vaccine despite being over 50. My fear of dropping dead from the vaccine due to my personal physiological peculiarities drove me to bury my head in the sand. My fear of dying under anaesthetic lead me to mentioning it to the anaesthetist who immediately ordered me Gabapentin which knocked me out for the few hours I waited for my surgery. I still went under fully expecting not to wake up. When I did I sobbed with relief. I'm not a generally anxious person, and even when I'm genuinely anxious I was brought up not to make a fuss, so I try to muscle through.

I had Covid in the late summer, from a fully vaccinated person. My vaccinated DP did too. Our experience was the same - unpleasant but not even particularly respiratory- more gastric and fatigue.

My surgery consultant told me I had a 37% higher risk of death under anaesthetic if I had Covid. But I had to do a PCR and isolate for three days prior to the op, which would have been cancelled if I'd had Covid.....

For me the whole vaccination issue is immensely personal, and one small thing I currently have control over, and I can't be the only one in the approximately 6 million currently unvaccinated to feel similarly.

I am mask wearing and following all other mitigations.

The difference between the official narrative and personal experience is also part of the problem I think - my very frail end stage dementia MIL has tested positive twice in her care home, both times asymptomatic and the second time after vaccination. Four people at the same gathering as my DP and I caught Covid at, who were 50/50 vaccinated and had the same level if exposure did not catch it.

So Covid is less scary to me than the vaccine and also less scary than the attitudes of people to each other, the division being sown across society and the cavalier attitudes of those in power.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@Flowerlane i don't think anyone will be denied treatment
Medical staff would not agree with ths for a start [/quote]
I honestly don’t think it will happen either as that’s a very slippery slope to go down.

@Subbaxeo

I’m all for vaccine passports. We accept documents like driving licences. We accept restrictions on our freedoms all the time for the greater public good. This is a public health issue. It’s for the protection of people who are unvaccinated as well as those who are. It’s a duty to get vaccinated to protect those who for medical reasons can’t be.

What you are actually saying is that it is a duty for people to risk something that could kill them. It's a tiny risk, but it should always be voluntary.

However, I am reluctantly in favour of vaccine passports on a time limited basis for larger indoor events. Not for shops and cafes though. Or swimming pools/gyms - it's a greater benefit to society for people to be able to exercise than just go for endless walks outside.

No, but I’ve noticed an excess of it on here and such strength of opinion that I don’t fear from ordinary people around me in ordinary life-weird!

@wanderingFruitwanderer

I've have mental health issues too people seem to forget there are people out here with complex needs preventing the vaccine. I feel so pressured when I cant cope with life as it is and hardly leave my house. I've also had covid and recovered so dont understand why that cant be counted. And they can check my anti bodies I'm oka to keep doing that and they can test my t cells aswell but they would never consider this as the just want to push the vaccine. I think they need to think of alternatives for some people with complex needs. And no no one on mumsnet is qualified to decide what's classed as a complex need !

@MistressoftheDarkSide 👏 👏 👏

@AdmiralCain

I'm severely Pro choice (With a hint of anti vax) You get one jab - you still catch and pass on Covid You get jab two - you still catch and pass on Covid You get jab three - you still catch and pass on Covid The product is faulty - Lets blame the people who aren't jabbed.

I think you need a very basic level lesson in statistics and public health.

@MistressoftheDarkSide

Nothing is going to work 100%. A combination of mitigations has worked, up until this last variant, which is apparently more transmissible, may evade vaccines and natural immunity etc etc.

All we can really do is work with what we're given, but demonising a relatively small proportion of the population is not going to encourage people to participate enthusiastically. It will lead to a whole new set of problems, not least encouraging the mindset that punishing people for choosing not to take a vaccine they feel uncertain about is in any way acceptable.

If an unvaccinated person wears a mask, tests regularly, avoids risk as far as possible etc why is that not enough? Sweeping generalisations about 5g and Bill Gates believers aren't actually reflective of most peoples mind sets. There will always be people with fringe beliefs and paranoia, and even some of those are proven right about their concerns down the line.

Because wearing a mask and testing won’t stop them needing hospital care if they become unwell. Having a vaccine protects NHS beds.

Mask wearing and testing will not stop anybody vaccinated or unvaccinated from needing hospital treatment regardless of whatever spin of ‘reduced numbers’ you put on it, that’s fact.

80% of both vaccinated and unvaccinated in ITU are overweight/obese so tackle that issue as it’s clearly a risk factor.

What about if that includes double vaccinated people too because two doses aren’t as effective at preventing infection from omicron? And then triple vaccinated (as Israel have done)? See where this goes?

@bumbleymummy I’m ok with annual vaccines like we do with flu, if it means life going back to normal. I’m also ok with 6 monthly boosters for a while, if it means life going back to normal. I find the thought of lockdowns etc constantly hanging over us totally depressing, and will accept a fair bit to resume a very close to normal life

Wearing a mask limits spread according to most. Testing regularly will pick up infection and lead to isolation preventing spread. There is no guarantee that having Covid and being unvaccinated will lead to hospitalisation and death. See my post above. Avoiding catching Covid is the only guarantee of any outcome, which, if the official narrative is to be believed, is now virtually impossible, and if a vaccinated person needs a hospital bed is that somehow their fault too?

The NHS would never decline care free at the point of use. However they do bill people afterwards who don’t qualify for free healthcare. So it’s a possibility they could extend this to the unvaccinated should they be treated for Covid. Anyone on benefits etc wouldn’t be able to pay anyway, so would just affect those with assets.

@LynxGiftsetAndSocks

So who is going to stand in the door of every Tesco/Asda/boots denying access to the unvaccinated?

They are already arrogant enough to refuse to be vaccinated, how are they going to react to someone at the door saying they can't come in?

Our local Tesco isn’t even challenging no masks.

The sooner they bring in covid passports the better 👏

There’s not going to be a two tier system introduced, for one that would require more admin resources than we have.

No, don’t worry, we’ll all have equally shit levels of access to equally shit levels of care no matter what the problem is.