Govt plans re unvaccinated feels like a change is afoot

[whenwillthemadnessend]

Anyone noticed the govt and news sources seem to be covering more and more stories regarding the unvaccinated (by choice)
I feel they might be ramping up support for restrictions for unvaccinated people.
It's feel very much like propaganda and warm up the masses.
Anyone agree or noticed this in the last 3/4 days?

@Tealightsandd

Re the GMB "Should we lockdown before Christmas" poll.

Whose judgement to go for... The unqualified viewership of GMB? Or the world's leading experts including the head of the World Health Organisation...?

The WHO do not recommend lockdowns.

@DoleWhipFloat

Interesting story in the news.

Cruise ship. Thousands of fully vaccinated passengers. All took LFT before boarding.

48 come down with covid during the cruise.

amp.cnn.com/cnn/videos/business/2021/12/20/symphony-of-the-seas-cruise-covid-outbreak-wall-street-hln-vpx.hln

And that’s what would happen if you mandated vaccines or excluded the unvaccinated. So what is the point?

It's not about people not catching COVID. How many of those people on the cruise ship needed ICU treatment? Almost everyone in ICU with COVID is unvaccinated.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/23/covid-patients-in-icu-now-almost-all-unvaccinated-says-oxford-scientist

You have to wonder why the urgency to get us vaccinated when the numbers are trending down.

It would be great if we could have a conversation about T cell immunity also. Since vaccination seems to provide only a partial, temporary protection we should be looking at other types of immunity. Giving shots for ever is not the answer.

Also, if the NHS want to charge to treat me then I'd like my NI contributions back.

It wasn't me that first brought up yougov. I assume they were mentioned because they're one of the biggest polling organisations?

I'm putting weight on the WHO (and other leading scientific and medical experts).

The WHO do not recommend lockdowns.

Good point

The WHO do not support our vaccine policy.

So according to Google the populations of France and the UK are broadly similar, just under 68 million. But looking at a map France is approximately twice the land mass. Genuine question - might this contribute to differences in numbers and rates?

@Tealightsandd

To be clear. Vaccine passes are NOT the same thing as mandatory vaccines.

And also there are exemptions for the small minority genuinely unable to have a vaccine (for medical reasons including the very severe needle phobic like Xeno).

Vaccine passes are NOT the same thing as mandatory vaccines.

They are the first step towards mandates though. Like I said, in the space of months, the French sanitary pass has become a very different beast to the one we all cheerfully downloaded in the beginning.

@Tealightsandd

But also, why put more weight on the results of an on-the-spot phone-in GMB poll, than a well researched yougov poll?

Have you ever done a YouGov poll?

I have.

When you take the first question, let’s say:
‘Should vaccines be mandated?’
Depending on your answer, you are filtered to two different polls.

I answered ‘no’ and got filtered to a poll with completely different results to the one that was made public.

The polls are manufactured to get the answer they are looking for.

People are catching on and answering ‘yes’ to get to the real poll and only then answering truthfully. I think we’ll see an eventual end to the biased polling.

@MarshaBradyo it's of concern, though I don't think we are there yet with potential hospitalisation. 3 weeks ago we were at 150ish cases a day, this morning we have 3800, so the growth is fast and I'm sure we will start seeing some real struggle.

Testing centres are turning people away due to lack of capacity, if you can get in the wait time is hours and hours long.

There is a call for the lateral flow tests to be made free, they currently cost $10/15 each so are unaffordable for many and given the uk and much of Europe are giving them out for free...

Many people are testing for Christmas travel requirements to cross state borders or before family gatherings so in addition to the massive rise in cases there's a big proportion of people who have to test for other reasons.

Christmas and travel is a big thing as we were closed borders last year.

The WHO do not recommend lockdowns

They do as a last resort. For example when countries fail to implement the WHO advised Vaccine Plus mitigation measures (eg. masks, ventilation, vaccine passes).

When necessary, however...

www.standard.co.uk/news/world/covid-omicron-stop-holidays-who-tedros-adhanom-ghebreyesus-b973067.html

Dr Ghebreyesus said holiday festivities would in many places lead to "increased cases, overwhelmed health systems and more deaths" and urged people to postpone gatherings.

An event cancelled is better than a life cancelled," said Dr Ghebreyesus on Monday.

All of us are sick of this pandemic,” he told a press briefing on Monday. “All of us want to spend time with friends and family. All of us want to get back to normal.

The fastest way to do this is for all of us, leaders and individuals, to make the difficult decisions that must be made to protect ourselves and others.

We test far more than France so of course we are picking up more cases.

@Tealightsandd

Yes but France's peak is lower than the UK's. It all helps.

And like I've said, for the best examples of good pandemic infection control look East. Some of the Arab countries, and Wast Asia.

France never stopped strict mask wearing.

At some points we were wearing them in the street. (Mandated)

Christmas and travel is a big thing as we were closed borders last year.

This year everywhere else is (quite understandably) closing borders to us.

[quote XenoBitch]@godmum56
I was not a mum etc.. I was an MH patient and the being restrained and injected against my will has had a massive effect on me.
It makes me feel sick when I see people suggesting it as a solution.[/quote]
what was being suggested was WITH CONSENT. I agree that the OP's suggestion of using bouncers or the army was utterly innappropriate but i put that down to a lack of specialist insight and not "lets go out in mobs and forcibly vaccinate people" I do know of some people who have been virtually frog marched into the vac centre by friends again WITH CONSENT and in one case, the friend checked them in and the vaccinator actually came to the door to do it. What i am saying is that such methods used WITH CONSENT can and do help some people deal with a phobia situation in the short term.
My experience of using restraint was in an MH situation many years ago now. The lady in question suffered from puerpural psychosis and had a history of needing to be sectioned after each birth...I think it was her third time when I met her. She used to cut herself when affected and carried scars from previous wrist slashing. Once the episode was under control, she left the hospital and carried on with her normal life. I only met her the once and briefly but her notes (and the staff who knew her) gave the rest of the story. I didn't stay in MH practice so i have no idea how treatment has changed since then.

I’m sorry @Tealightsandd we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I’m afraid I will never support policies that promote division and inequality and potentially in this case, discrimination based on race and religion.

I will argue against such policies all the way. Many of the unvaccinated in ICU will have paid their NI contributions. They have a right to care.

It’s no different to an obese person (due to unhealthy lifestyle) taking up an ICU bed after having to have an op on their heart. In fact, it could be argued that this second person is using up far more resources.

And what of those people who have never paid NI but who take up a bed in ICU due to some other condition?

We should never pick and choose who gets care. We should never discriminate. Every person is an individual who deserves to have a choice.

I know @Beachcomber

Which is why France's situation, whilst not good, is less bad than the UK's.

Masks make a difference. And every little helps (Tesco is right).

On that note I need to get to bed. I have an early start in the morning. Perhaps I'll check out GMB (I've never watched it - am I the only one?).

Goodnight all.

[quote nojudgementhere]@XenoBitch - Yeah, I'd love to get some land somewhere remote with other like-minded people who just want to live a laid-back, simple life. If I ever do then you're invited![/quote]
Please can I come along too 🥺

Just had a look at 95% vaxxed New South Wales, Australia.

Yes, the vaccination rate certainly stopping spread there I see.

@Tealightsandd

I know *@Beachcomber*

Which is why France's situation, whilst not good, is less bad than the UK's.

Masks make a difference. And every little helps (Tesco is right).

On that note I need to get to bed. I have an early start in the morning. Perhaps I'll check out GMB (I've never watched it - am I the only one?).

Goodnight all.

I wouldn’t bother. It’s rubbish.

But goodnight. Have a lovely day tomorrow.

@XenoBitch you mentioned having been a MH inpatient (hope that’s right and I haven’t got the wrong end of the stick). I can’t see the government requiring those with history of SMI to have vaccine passports. I think you will/ should be safe. Same goes for vulnerable populations like the homeless. GP/ NHS care records can be used to provide exemptions.

This thread has been a lot more civil than others I've seen on similar topics.

@MummyPop00 certainly not stopping the spread no, we are crossing our fingers that while infection rates are rocketing it will keep hospitalisation and deaths low though... I guess we will know in a few weeks

The only place I hear endless debate about “the unvaccinated” is here.

discrimination based on race and religion.

Before bed, I must just ask...what race or religion?

There's nothing in Christianity that I'm aware of against the vaccines? The Pope is supportive, as are the leaders of all the main other denominations?

Judaism? Israel initially led the way with vaccinations.

Islam? The country with the highest vaccine take up in the world is a Muslim country - UAE. And vaccine passes have successfully rolled out in several Arab Muslim countries.

Hindus? I'm not aware of any religious objection. India has been jabbing away (and even stopped vaccine exports a while back when their need was high).

Sikhs? Buddhists? Is there any specific objection from either of these religions? I'm not aware of one but one but perhaps there is something?

Any genuine religious exemption (presumably am ultra orthodox minority group) wouldn't make a huge difference because clearly the vast majority of mainstream religious denominations are fine with vaccines.