Why do people keep saying the unvaccinated are what’s keeping the pandemic going?

[Keytomyheart]

That would be true if the vaccinated couldn’t catch it and spread it, but they can.

So how are the unvaccinated prolonging this? Because I’m not understanding it.

Btw I am vaxxed, but not decided on booster yet.

And the figures I quoted are the totals May-Nov

The comparator is figure in the previous six months, which includes the winter peak

The number fell by that percentage, not as a proportion, but because it fell in line with vaccination rates. Of course the number falls during a period of mass vaccination.

What this shows is that the level of over-representation in admissions remained the same across the previous report and thus one. The unvaccinated are a larger proportion in relation to the number in the popuiation, and they also form a higher number of those admitted.

Or are you trying to say that the figures in table 16 are actually wring?

No, actually, I don’t. As I said, it’s a direct quote and I’ve linked to the report itself. People can see it for themselves. I haven’t said anything that isn’t written down. I’m not sure why unmentioned (or you) thinks she’s saying something different to what I stated from the report.

I have just spent 2 weeks caring for family with COVID, in all honesty as DH is still suffering it looks like I will be caring for him for the long haul. I am the only person in the house who had the booster and the only one who didn’t come down with it, despite being asthmatic and immunosuppressed, and in not coming down with it I also didn’t pass it on. I don’t know what you expect from not getting the booster op, do you want a sticker or to join those people with their heads in the sand in Trafalgar Square and have a big knees up. You might as well have not bothered getting the first vaccines really, in my experience boosters work, or maybe you are just one of those people who stop taking antibiotics before the end of the course and then wonder why an infection comes back?

Or are you trying to say that the figures in table 16 are actually wring?

Nope. I wouldn’t quite something if I thought it was wrong.

Quote*

@bumbleymummy

Chequerboard, it’s a direct quote from the article. How can a direct quote be ‘misrepresenting data’ If you have a problem with what ICNARC are reporting then take it up with them. I’m sure they’d love to hear your expert opinion on their data.

@bumbleymummy it has been pointed out to you many atime

Obviously it's possible to take a direct quote from something that is a good quality source and misinterpret it, as you tend to to do.

I suspect the ICNARC scientists would be the ones to take issue with their publication being used in this way, not the other way around.

@ollyollyoxenfree I’m using a direct quote from their article so no, I doubt they’d have a problem with that.

I think your problem (and others) is that you think I’m trying to say that this means that unvaccinated people are less likely to end up in ICU. I am not. I have said several times on this thread, and others, the vaccination reduces the risk of serious illness and that if you compare vaccinated vs unvaccinated like for like then the unvaccinated person is at higher risk. But in this instance, we are talking about actual numbers in ICU and people are consistently stating things like ‘90% of people in icu are unvaccinated’ based on a misleading headline from a few weeks ago - the actual data shows that this is incorrect.

@minipie

Because the reason for restrictions is because of limited NHS capacity.

And the unvaccinated are far more likely to need medical help if they catch it.

If everyone was vaccinated we could lift restrictions and let it spread more rapidly without fear of the NHS being overwhelmed.

I can’t understand why you’d be happy to have two jabs but not three, what is your reasoning?

Do you not realise that lots of people have felt horrendously unwell after each of their first 2 vaccines!!?

The unvaccinated are the main reason we will be going into lockdown. The NHS would otherwise be able to cope with hospital admissions and we could continue to go about our everyday lives.

So the vaccinated are fully justified in their increasing anger towards the unvaccinated.... because they are taking away their rights to be educated/ see family and friends etc.

I don’t really see how this situation can continue.

It's a direct quote which is part of the methodology for how to control for different rates of vaccination over the periods in question.

The actual data is in table 16 which follows.

You are misrepresenting the bit you have latched on, because it's in the discussion of the methodology for the data which follows. Not part of the actual numbers by vaccination status in the period in question.

Do you not realise that lots of people have felt horrendously unwell after each of their first 2 vaccines!!?

How unwell do you think you’d feel with actual covid?

There is really no chance of avoiding getting covid any more, not with Omicron around, unless you are strictly shielding. It’s a choice between getting it having been vaccinated, or getting it unvaccinated. Evidence is that it will be less severe if you are vaccinated. To me that benefit far outweighs the chance of a day feeling rough after a vaccine. And that’s if we are only looking at it from a selfish perspective not all the other impacts.

I agree with a PP that the unvaccinated should be put under a strict curfew now and they should not be able to enjoy full access to public spaces/ events. Perhaps they should even charged for their care if they fall ill, like Switzerland has implemented.

They are already going to be prevented from working in the NHS and social caste. I’ve also heard of a few companies introducing mandatory vax for staff - not healthcare but because it’s the right thing to do.

*social care

But in this instance, we are talking about actual numbers in ICU

So that's table 16 data which shows that there are more unvaccinated acted people in ICU in the period up to November than single or double vaccinated. Actual numbers from the report (not the secintiin describing the methodology for dealing with the potential confounders of vaccination rates) are

unvaccinated 5065
vaccinated 1shot 377
vaccinated 2shots 3151

This is the actual counted number

How unwell do you think you’d feel with actual covid?

Well, I had covid before my second shot and my second shot made me feel far worse. 🤷‍♀️ I'm not bothered, it only lasted a day, just not sure what point you're making.

I agree with a PP that the unvaccinated should be put under a strict curfew now and they should not be able to enjoy full access to public spaces/ events.

What do you think this will achieve? It’s not going to prevent it spreading. Do you just want to ‘punish’ people?

Unmentioned - when people are saying that ‘90% of people in icu are unvaccinated’ , do you think they’re referring to data from May? (Which would also be incorrect - it was 75% in May) or do you think they’re talking about the numbers in ICU now? From looking at the most recent data in that report (November) what percentage were in ICU in November?

@HailAdrian

Because of the desperate need to blame someone for something that is out of our control. I am vaccinated but I think the attitudes towards those who exercise their rights NOT to be, are quite disgusting. Quite frankly, it's bordering on coercion.

I also thinks it goes the other way. I think people get angry because a lot of people who are not vaccinated tell everybody they are not vaccinated and those that are are stupid sheep.

Me & DH have had booster - fine our choice. DSS 17 has had both jabs - fine his choice. DS and his GF had 2 but are questioning if to have booster as worried about how many they are expected to take - fine again their choice. DSD and her BF don't want either - fine again their choice, only they think we are stupid (not generally as they call every 5 mins for all sorts of advise) but as far as these vaccines are concerned the only opinion they are interested in is their own. DSD has told DS's GF she is a fool and feels sorry for DN if they got him vaccinated in 5 years. Won't have jab because don't know what is in it - but have taken class A drugs years ago. Convinced that government is trying to control them but live in LA housing and happily take benefits - the irony is lost on them.

Nobody would know if they were or weren't vaccinated if they didn't keep posting utter crap all over SM. I have been out a few times over last few months and have not once felt the need to ask someone what their vaccination status is because I just don't care but they are convinced that everyone hates them because they don't want it - no we as your family are concerned about you health but respect your choice.

I don't agree in vaccine passports but think that people should have to give proof of a negative test but a few people including DSD think that testing is for dummies as well.

Honestly it is exhausting. I love DSD and we are extremely close, I know her heart is in the right place but despite every reassurance I give her that we respect her choice, it is not good enough and there is constant bombardment of anti-vax rubbish. We don't bring it up with her but every week she brings it up to us - I am banning all talk of covid this Christmas.

Even if you want to use the actual figures since May that you listed above, it’s 59% unvaccinated (63% if you want to include single doses too) so still not the 90% that is being trotted out all over this board. The media have a lot to answer for!

I am banning all talk of covid this Christmas.

Well, that I can get on board with.

You're right, it goes both ways and I'm fed up of people writing others off as 'stupid and selfish' or 'sheep' because of different viewpoints.

It’s not since May those figures, technically in the period from May to July the unvaccinated plus/including only those with one dose was closer to 90% in intensive care in England only just to be transparent (cannot find data including Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales - does anyone know why that is?) and the 90% probably came originally from north east london hospitals which were at that time, recording 90% in critical care beds who were unvaccinated, also taken from Full Facts.

The rate of admission to critical care with confirmed COVID-19 by vaccination status for patients admitted 1 May 2021 to 15 November 2021 per week shows a clear consistency in the unvaccinated being admitted in higher numbers over that 6 month period, also taken from the ICNARC report, just for clarity mind.

@Bamburghdoodle

I went to A&E with gallbladder symptoms and within 30 hours was on 70% high nasal oxygen in HDU with a pathway prepared for ITU. I had to phone my husband and children and tell them this would be the last time I could talk to them for a while. Thankfully after three anti biotics, steroids, bolus dose of Samirulab I got home and out. Where I’m still recovering.

I had both vaccines but hadn’t produced any antibodies at all. As I’m immuno compromised it hit hard and fast. I’m 41.

On my HDU ward there were four of us. All under 55, all double vaccinated. All unique in covid presentations.

We can’t blame people who don’t want the vaccine. We can all catch it. Vaccines don’t make us invincible. Or righteous in some cases.

I'm glad you're ok. How long ago was that, out of interest? Just asking as my mum is also immunocompromised and has had 3 preliminary jabs in place of the usual 2 and will get her booster in January.

They've made it very clear that being double vaccinated isn't enough which is why they're pushing the booster. I don't know many people now who haven't had their booster so was wondering how recently you were talking about.

It's only partially the fault of the unvaccinated that it's keeping going.
I) the vaccines offer significant partial protection against getting Covid. Don't have it? Can't spread it.
II) the vaccines offer 90%+ protection against ending up in hospital. This doesn't prolong the pandemic as such, but sucks up resources that could be better used elsewhere and is knackering and deeply frustrating for the health care workers who have to care for them.
III) Omicron and Delta are so infectious that we won't hit herd immunity with current vaccines, even if everyone is jabbed. But we could tick along a lot better than we are now. We are looking at a significant shortage of healthcare and other workers, just because so many will be ill.

@Waxonwaxoff0

Because they are the ones taking up hospital beds.

No - the data is dodgy. They are only testing unvaccinated people routinely in hospital for covid so of course there will be more unvaccinated 'covid' patients in ICU. You only have to have it to be a covid patient you could be on hospital for anything and only the unvaccinated are tested - as soon as you are positive you become a covid patient.

Oh what absolute nonsense @Aishah231

Although it’s funny that you are taking the stance that there are more unvaccinated patients in ICU beds based on previous posters’.

This is why people are losing patience-the misinformation is dangerous