Why do people keep saying the unvaccinated are what’s keeping the pandemic going?

[Keytomyheart]

That would be true if the vaccinated couldn’t catch it and spread it, but they can.

So how are the unvaccinated prolonging this? Because I’m not understanding it.

Btw I am vaxxed, but not decided on booster yet.

The virus spreads faster in those who are unvaccinated. The more people get vaccinated, the fewer new variants we will get and that alongside a rise in hospitalisations of primarily unvaccinated people is what’s putting us back in restrictions.

I’m so annoyed that we’re in for another year of this. Walking around Birmingham today and seeing the number of people who couldn’t even be bothered to wear a mask gave me serious rage. And no there’s not a chance that many people are exempt even on spurious grounds.

I went to A&E with gallbladder symptoms and within 30 hours was on 70% high nasal oxygen in HDU with a pathway prepared for ITU. I had to phone my husband and children and tell them this would be the last time I could talk to them for a while. Thankfully after three anti biotics, steroids, bolus dose of Samirulab I got home and out. Where I’m still recovering.

I had both vaccines but hadn’t produced any antibodies at all. As I’m immuno compromised it hit hard and fast. I’m 41.

On my HDU ward there were four of us. All under 55, all double vaccinated. All unique in covid presentations.

We can’t blame people who don’t want the vaccine. We can all catch it. Vaccines don’t make us invincible. Or righteous in some cases.

Unvaccinated people are more likely to catch it and more likely to get seriously ill, therefore the ones most likely to be causing any NHS crisis (which is the reason for lockdowns).

I'm not a highly educated person or specially intelligent. I have understood since 16/03/2020 that our health care system cannot cope with treating the number of people who might get seriously ill with covid all at once. And even if it could, others with serious illnesses would get bumped down the list and still very much are being bumped down the list.

For illustration purposes only let's say 10% of adults in the UK are unvaccinated. If we say 50 million are adults then 10% of those unvaccinated is 5 million. If 1% of them die in this next wave then that's 50,000 people. 50,000 in the next month or so ... don't you think hospitals are going to feel the pinch? Especially with health care workers off sick?

And we all know that more than 10% of adults aren't vaccinated. I don't know why we don't see more statistics like this on the news as people seem unable to do the calculations themselves.

Vaccinated are catching it and in a small percentage of cases ending up in hospital. But unvaccinated are many, many times more likely to end up in hospital and more importantly to be there a long time. A COVID unvaccinated person on ICU will likely be there much more than a week, using a bed which could be used to save the lives of multiple people for recovery after everything from strokes and heart attacks to road accidents and life saving cancer surgery (which often only need a short stay on ICU). A vaccinated person is less likely to need ICU and if they do, it is usually for less time. I had my vaccine to protect me and also do my bit for those that need the emergency beds. I respect those who don't want the vaccine and understand the implications, we all make selfish decisions in life so I can't judge. But I do worry about those that are not making their own decision and are being fed by internet quacks.

I don't get it either. The rules currently say that if you're vaccinated and come into close contact you don't have to isolate. But In my experience, this has meant vaccinated people going to the office or the pub after having close contact and then finding out the next day that they have covid.

My brother went to a party where he and his 7 friends all got covid (and took it back to their homes and spread it), all vaccinated. My boss came into work while her whole family were at home with covid, she then tested positive and the whole office was struck down. There must be thousands of examples like this.

This is the exact reason why vaccine passports are completely pointless imo.

@Bamburghdoodle what a terrifying experience for you. Glad to hear you are home now.

@rightsideoftheroad

I don't get it either. The rules currently say that if you're vaccinated and come into close contact you don't have to isolate. But In my experience, this has meant vaccinated people going to the office or the pub after having close contact and then finding out the next day that they have covid.

My brother went to a party where he and his 7 friends all got covid (and took it back to their homes and spread it), all vaccinated. My boss came into work while her whole family were at home with covid, she then tested positive and the whole office was struck down. There must be thousands of examples like this.

This is the exact reason why vaccine passports are completely pointless imo.

We can only hope that those tiresome people with PhDs and decades of experience and access to hundreds of thousands of data points can be replaced by someone like you and your two stories.

@Yummypumpkin no need for your bitchy sarcasm. It's not just me and my 2 stories though, is it, its the 90k cases a day, most of which will be in the vaccinated (who don't need to self isolate!)

I was giving examples of why the no self isolating for close contact rule is madness for the vaccinated when they can still catch and spread it. Its common sense, doesn't take scientists to see that it doesn't work.

35% of his admissions are unvaxed. Vaccinated can catch and spread. More likely to not test? who knows... Utterly shocking narrow mindedness. Ask all the doctors and nurses why they don't want the vacvination... You know... The doctors and nurses who were goos enough to treat our loved ones a year ago...those ones with proper medical training who don't want a vaccine. It is so frustrating...

@boogiebogie where did you get your stat that 35% of hospital admissions for covid have not been vaccinated? Also, any links to doctors arguing against vaccination? I would be interested to watch/read.

If you're vaccinated you are likely to have very mild symptoms if you catch covid. So unlikely to need hospital (and therefore contribute to overwhelming the NHS). It doesn't matter that you can still catch it and pass it on. It's a generally a mild disease if you're vaccinated, it's only because lots of people are unvaccinated (and therefore at risk of suffering badly with it) that we're having to contemplate locking down again.

What I'm confused about how comes it's a 'personal choice' to get vaccinated, but it wasn't 'personal choice' to adhear to the restrictions? They are both measures to ensure we don't overwhelm the NHS, with vaccination being far more effective and far less disruptive and damaging to our lives.

If everyone was vaccinated it wouldn't matter how much covid spread, it would generally be a very mild disease. It's the unvaccinated that are keeping the pandemic going in the sense that they are the reason we might need to bring on more restrictions.

If we get to the point where the NHS has to ration ICU beds, what, as a society, would we deem an appropriate order of priority for beds to be? Is is age, likelihood of survival, or something else? From what I gather, that's pretty much what happens in an emergency situation, hence why care home residents had blanket Do Not Resuscitate orders in the first wave. What happens when that's exhausted and doctors need to made decisions about younger, healthier people, because even when we've considered the elderly/infirm, there's still not enough ICU beds? That's a truly terrible situation to be in, but it's not inconceivable at the moment. Should a person who has chosen not to be vaccinated, but is admitted to ICU take priority over, say, someone with a treatable cancer, because the Covid patient is more likely to survive? Should a younger person who has chosen to be unvaccinated take priority over my 70 year old mum who would, even if older, still have decades left in normal circumstances? I don't know what the answer is, and I really hope doctors don't need to make those kinds of decisions, but we're much less likely to be in that situation if everyone who could be, was vaccinated. That's for me where the potential horror lies, if the NHS really can't cope and it can't treat everyone who needs it. I don't understand why anyone would want to contribute to the likelihood of that if reasonably avoidable. Is it that people don't believe that the NHS is in danger of being overwhelmed? When will they believe it? If they see it with their own eyes on TV will they believe it, it will that be "fake news" too?

The UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) publishes a vaccine surveillance report. This shows most Covid patients admitted to hospital are fully vaccinated (61%).
There is a lot of misinformation being spread by so called experts - Dr Hillary Jones was exposed as a liar this month www.charitytoday.co.uk/full-fact-doctor-hillary-jones-claim-90-of-people-in-hospital-are-unvaccinated-is-wrong-its-36/

[quote bearandowl]The UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) publishes a vaccine surveillance report. This shows most Covid patients admitted to hospital are fully vaccinated (61%).
There is a lot of misinformation being spread by so called experts - Dr Hillary Jones was exposed as a liar this month www.charitytoday.co.uk/full-fact-doctor-hillary-jones-claim-90-of-people-in-hospital-are-unvaccinated-is-wrong-its-36/[/quote]
And that is why the general public should not be let loose with statistics!

If there is a population of 1000 and 75% are vaccinated, 750 are vaccinated, 250 aren't. If 100 people are admitted to hospital, 61% vaccinated, 39% unvaccinated, there are 61 vaccinated and 39 unvaccinated.

That 61 vaccinated represents 61/750100 = 8.1% of the vaccinated population. The unvaccinated represent 39/250100=15.6% of the unvaccinated population.

Therefore, you are nearly twice as likely to end up hospital if you are unvaccinated. That also ignores any controls for the vaccinated for whom the vaccine was ineffective due to being immuno-compromised etc.

Because they are taking up more health resources and allowing the virus to mutate.

Ochon, you can manipulate the statistics all you like - the fact is the majority of people in hospital and using resources are fully vaccinated.

Hmm so we're all for bodily autonomy except sometimes. As pp, 'the unvaccinated' are just scapegoats and the people happy to have someone to blame are probably the same people who were gleefully 'reporting' others at the beginning.

@bearandowl - because a greater number of the population is vaccinated. Unvaccinated people are at a fair greater risk. It's simple maths.

@bearandowl

Ochon, you can manipulate the statistics all you like - the fact is the majority of people in hospital and using resources are fully vaccinated.

Please explain how my explanation is manipulating statistics. What are the flaws in my logic? If I'm wrong about unvaccinated being twice as likely to end up in hospital based on the assumption that 75% of the population are vaccinated please point out where I went wrong.

If the unvaccinated were vaccinated, the number of that cohort who are hospitalised would be approximately halved.

For simplicity, we will say it is halved so with the example I gave above, the 39 unvaccinated who are hospitalised would be reduced to 20. That would result in 61 plus 20 = 81 in hospital as opposed to the current 100. That's an extra 19 beds for those who have strokes, heart attacks, car crashes etc.

“That would be true if the vaccinated couldn’t catch it and spread it, but they can.”

I keep seeing this crop up, do people really not understand ‘can’ is not the same as ‘as likely to’ - they are a lot less likely to have it, spread it, or need treatment for it. The pressure on the nhs is a huge part of the picture (and yes, underfunding is the biggest nhs issue) and if everyone were vaccinated that pressure would be less.

[quote luckylavender]@bearandowl - because a greater number of the population is vaccinated. Unvaccinated people are at a fair greater risk. It's simple maths. [/quote]
Yes, if you compare a vaccinated person and unvaccinated person of the same age/general health/bmi then the unvaccinated person is at higher risk. The point she is making is that the actual number of vaccinated people in hospital is higher so all this talk about unvaccinated people being the ‘majority in hospital’ and ‘taking up all the beds/resources’ is incorrect.