Do unvaccinated people not see they are part of the problem?

[User135644]

I accept it's people's right whether they get jabbed or not, entirely up to them. However, the more people stubbornly refuse a vaccine then the worse it'll be for all of us. The hospitals will be more stretched and we'll have more restrictions, lockdowns or circuit breakers. People who won't get the vaccine are often the most anti-lockdown or restrictions, yet are part of the problem as to why we'll keep getting them.

Where exactly do they think we'd be without vaccines? We wouldn't have had a relatively normal 6 months or so with everything open, that's for sure.

@bumbleymummy
“According to the latest ICNARC report the median bmis of patients in icu are 30.3 (unvaccinated) , 30.8 (single dose) and 29.6 (vaccinated)”

The median BMI in all those groups isn’t that much different from the median for U.K. adult population in general which is 27.6
www.statista.com/statistics/333865/bmi-of-individual-by-gender-in-england-uk/

With a difference of only 2pts or less in BMI between this general adult population mean and both unvaccinated and vaccinated in ICU, you’re talking a difference in weight of ~6kg for average height woman, and ~8kg for average height man. Which could simply be due to age as middle aged people tend to be a little be heavier than average and also at more risk of Covid. The risk of Covid jumps once you hit 40...which is when you also tend to put on a bit of extra weight.

So, I think what you see there is correlation due to the age risk factor and not causation. An extra 6-8kg isn’t going to be a statistically significant factor for Covid.

@AdoptDontShop

Why is Mumsnet so fixated on Covid when there are barely any Covid patients in hospitals. Why is there absolutely no concern for the 500 or so people who die every day from cancer - so many deaths which were avoidable. Where is the compassion for deaths caused by lockdowns? I’m sure all of us know people who died because the National Covid Service refused to treat them.

I have a huge compassion for those in hospital. Regardless of the reason. Which is why covid is so horrendous and why we need to do everything we can to reduce its spread and severity.

How do you treat patients when staff are sick or isolating because of Covid? When beds are reorganised because of Covid? When there is no bed so you can't operate or do a procedure? When GPs are running a vaccination programme and can't simultaneously see patients?

There was not enough money or staff pre covid. You can't increase patient numbers and work load massively and expect service as normal. We knew there would be unintended deaths, it was talked about at the beginning. Its horrendous.

We can all do something about it. Nothing is 100% effective but it all counts.

@bumbleymummy

Or I simply disagree with you *@leafyygreens* . We’re all entitled to our opinions. We have been encouraging people to be vaccinated for months but still some people have not and some are ending up in ICU. If BMI is a risk factor for icu admission (and latest data suggests that it most certainly is) then it makes sense to address this directly. There may be overweight/obese younger people who think that they are protected by their age and may not realise that their BMI puts them at increased risk. A targeted campaign could encourage uptake in this vulnerable group - much in the same way targeting older/vulnerable/BAME who were at greater risk, helped to increase uptake. If the goal is to to reduce pressure on the NHS then increasing vaccination in a group more likely to end up in hospital would be more effective than trying to convince a large number of low risk people to be vaccinated when they haven’t so far.

I think you misunderstand

There was no targeted campaign for elderly people, not sure where you got that from. There were targeted and outreach programmes to ethnic minority groups & care workers because there is large amounts of vaccine hesitancy in this groups.

BMI is not associated with vaccine hesitancy. Obese people are not disproportionately turning down the vaccine.

It just seems like this is another angle of your repeated claims that the general population don't need to be vaccinated against coronavirus.

I agree with others that someone reading this could think, "oh well I'm not obese, no need to be vaccinated then"

Please read my previous post @Beadebaser Perhaps it will clear things up for you.

There is no ‘misinformation’ in my posts. I am quoting directly from ICNARC data. We are all entitled to our opinions on how we could best reduce pressure on the nhs - some people think lockdowns/restrictions/vaccine passports etc. I happen to think that, now, our best bet would be a targeted campaign that highlights the risk of higher BMIs and that hopefully encourages more people in that particular at- risk group to be vaccinated.
You are, of course, free to disagree with me, but trying to suggest that it is ‘misinformation’ or that I am implying that doctors ‘got it wrong’ is a bit silly.

There is no ‘misinformation’ in my posts. I am quoting directly from ICNARC data

It is entirely possible to quote figures or sentences from a legit source with your own incorrect or misleading interpretations, either deliberately or because you don't fully understand.

@bumbleymummy
There is no ‘misinformation’ in my posts. I am quoting directly from ICNARC data

Yes, but you’re not analysing the data very logically or critically and jumping to half baked conclusions that are not supported by the full context surrounding the data. It’s your conclusions that people are rightly critiquing.

@ineedsun 450 deaths every day from cancer according to the Cancer Research website.
Undoubtedly more this year.
Sorry if this deflects from your and Boris’s narrative.
People do die from other causes - though people have been kicked off Mumsnet, government mouthpiece, for saying this.

[quote AdoptDontShop]@ineedsun 450 deaths every day from cancer according to the Cancer Research website.
Undoubtedly more this year.
Sorry if this deflects from your and Boris’s narrative.
People do die from other causes - though people have been kicked off Mumsnet, government mouthpiece, for saying this.[/quote]
I replied to that post..

Cancer patients will suffer more in a healthcare system overwhelmed with coronavirus.

The concern around COVID- that seems disproportionate- is because if rates get too high than all other health services are disrupted. You can't refuse to treat COVID patients, they have to go somewhere, and so this means those who aren't at risk of dying right this instant have their care pushed back or the quality lowered.

[quote EmpressCixi]@bumbleymummy
“According to the latest ICNARC report the median bmis of patients in icu are 30.3 (unvaccinated) , 30.8 (single dose) and 29.6 (vaccinated)”

The median BMI in all those groups isn’t that much different from the median for U.K. adult population in general which is 27.6
www.statista.com/statistics/333865/bmi-of-individual-by-gender-in-england-uk/

With a difference of only 2pts or less in BMI between this general adult population mean and both unvaccinated and vaccinated in ICU, you’re talking a difference in weight of ~6kg for average height woman, and ~8kg for average height man. Which could simply be due to age as middle aged people tend to be a little be heavier than average and also at more risk of Covid. The risk of Covid jumps once you hit 40...which is when you also tend to put on a bit of extra weight.

So, I think what you see there is correlation due to the age risk factor and not causation. An extra 6-8kg isn’t going to be a statistically significant factor for Covid.[/quote]
Hi Empress, studies have suggested an increased risk with increased bmi and iirc, there is a chart in that report that does show that obese people are over represented in icu in comparison to the population.

The risk actually jumps more from age 50 - that’s why they were in the initial priority groups for vaccination. 6-8Kgs is a lot btw. Are you maybe getting confused with lbs?

@leafyygreens it was made very public from the start that age was the biggest risk factor and that the elderly needed to be prioritised for vaccination last year. That’s why the JCVI recommended starting with the elderly - they were the most likely group to end up in hospital. And it was a very successful campaign - the uptake in the older/vulnerable groups is very very high.

Tbh I think you read my posts thinking that there is some sort of hidden ‘agenda’ when there actually isn’t. Just take them at face value. I have no problem with the entire population being offered the vaccine (although I think it’s unfair to developing countries that we are prioritising younger/low risk people over their vulnerable and hcps) - I just don’t agree with compulsory vaccination/coercion etc.

These slides about vaccinated v unvaccinated in ICU are from ICNARC. I think I’ll go with these🙄

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow yep, they’re the ones I referred to earlier - unvaccinated in November at 48%, down from 75% in May. So, yes, please do refer to those when you see people saying things like ‘90% of people in icu are unvaccinated’ because it shows that it isn’t the case.

And just to be clear, I am in no way trying to suggest that the vaccine does not reduce the risk of serious illness/hospitalisation.

“Hi Empress, studies have suggested an increased risk with increased bmi and iirc, there is a chart in that report that does show that obese people are over represented in icu in comparison to the population.

The risk actually jumps more from age 50 - that’s why they were in the initial priority groups for vaccination. 6-8Kgs is a lot btw. Are you maybe getting confused with lbs?“

Ok, studies haven’t suggest BMI by itself causes an increased risk from Covid.

what they have shown is that obesity related comorbidities like diabetes and heart disease are the risk factors. But of course, not all diabetes and people with heart disease are obese. Being overweight/slightly obese raises your risk of these comorbidities...you see? BMI is correlated to Covid comorbidities, it by itself causes not added risk.

What the studies have also shown is that age is the primary risk factor. And middle aged people tend to weigh about that much more. 6-8kgs is less than 10% of body weight for average height person between those BMIs. So, no it’s not a lot. And the data you’ve presented does not adjust for the confounding Covid risk factor of age. If it did, the difference would be even fewer kgs of body weight, which puts us into the realm, of yes there’s a correlation, but is it even statistically significant?

Oh cripes is @bumbleymummy back to rumble on about obesity, joy.

@nojudgementhere

Nope, but have failed to reply to the argument that you, by not being vaccinated are reducing capacity in Hospitals.
In the first, unvaccinated, wave, many ICU's were full and emergency admission had to go other regions, some died.

Because people are refusing vaccinations, they are contributing , not only to capacity issues but to healthcare staffs stress and illness.

@bumbleymummy

Lots of posters have pointed out why what you're claiming & saying doesn't make any sense, but it does tend to go round in circles.

Why do you think no-one like the CMOs/PHE/SAGE has suggested this? Isn't a bit odd that your stroke of genius hasn't been picked up by all those experts?

@Xenia

They are difficult moral arguments. I could say those who are overweight (half the nation which is crippling the NHS) are choosing in effect to kill others, as much as people like I am who have used the NHS for 7 minutes in 15 years and have paid hundreds of thousands of income tax into, just about don't see anyone and am not catching nor spreading covid despite not having a vaccination. I have not had a night away from home from 2019 etc.

Always amazes me. No matter what the thread topic, you always find a way to somehow allude to how much you’ve earned!

I think it’s unfair to developing countries that we are prioritising younger/low risk people over their vulnerable and hcp

No the U.K. if thats who you mean by “we” are not doing this. The U.K. has bought and donated double the vaccines it needed for its own population. And we ordered them all at once. We did not stockpile them or divert delivery to ourselves first. You forget we are a small country. We literally should not be expected to buy billions of doses when much larger, richer countries could do the same as us. Buy and donate at least 1 vaccine for every person in your country.

And we can’t attach strings to our donated vaccines. How they are distributed is decided by the nation that receives them. If those nations are not prioritising their HCPs or vulnerable, that was their decision, not ours, we have no say.

The spike protein from Covid vaccine stays in your body longer than 6 months and with more doses added it adds up.

No, it doesn't. And it is a harmless piece of material, in any case.

"Facts About COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines:

COVID-19 mRNA vaccines cannot give someone the virus that causes COVID-19 or other viruses.

• mRNA vaccines do not use the live virus that causes COVID-19 and cannot cause infection with the virus that causes COVID-19 or other viruses.

They do not affect or interact with our DNA in any way.

• mRNA never enters the nucleus of the cell where our DNA (genetic material) is located, so it cannot change or influence our genes.

The mRNA and the spike protein don’t last long in the body.

• Our cells break down mRNA and get rid of it within a few days after vaccination.

• Scientists estimate that the spike protein, like other proteins our bodies create, may stay in the body up to a few weeks."

www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html

Exactly @leafyygreens.

It’s the way you ‘use’ and manipulate this data @bumbleymummy and encourage others to go against the science. Like you know better. You don’t.

Ok, studies haven’t suggest BMI by itself causes an increased risk from Covid.

Yes, they have. Here’s just one.

“ At a BMI of more than 23 kg/m2, we found a linear increase in risk of severe COVID-19 leading to admission to hospital and death, and a linear increase in admission to an ICU across the whole BMI range, which is not attributable to excess risks of related diseases. The relative risk due to increasing BMI is particularly notable people younger than 40 years and of Black ethnicity.”

www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8587(21)00089-9/fulltext

So definitely worth highlighting imo.

@leafyygreens politically unpalatable perhaps? Considered ‘fat shaming’ ? You only have to look at peoples reactions to it being brought up on MN to see that it wouldn’t go down well.

Btw lots of people point out why vaccine passports/further lockdowns don’t make sense but it doesn’t stop people discussing them or saying why they think they’re a good idea. We are all allowed to have different opinions you know.

You forget we are a small country. We literally should not be expected to buy billions of doses when much larger, richer countries could do the same as us

We are still the worlds 5th richest economy.

Its shocking we have donated so few vaccines of the 100m (in itself a small number) we promised we would.
Last figure i saw was 11m, though to be frank, AZ is a useless vaccine now.

USA promised 1 billion and has delivered over 300m

I don’t get it OP. They give a general statement about ‘not trusting it’. What I don’t understand is how you can not trust a scientifically tested dose of covid that is minor in comparison to the real virus. But you can trust and take your chance with a virus that could wreak havoc in your body. As if just because it’s not man-made it’s somehow healthy. There are a lot of things that are not man-made that are not healthy...sickness and disease is often ‘natural’...that’s what I don’t understand...if that makes sense?

@bumbleymummy Our local healthcentre does prioritise vaccination the vulnerable, across a range of conditions, including obesity.

i'm sure we are not unique.

@Beadebaser

Exactly *@leafyygreens*.

It’s the way you ‘use’ and manipulate this data @bumbleymummy and encourage others to go against the science. Like you know better. You don’t.

I am not ‘manipulating’ anything. I’m directly quoting the data to explain why I have the opinion that I do and why I think a more targeted approach at this stage could encourage vaccine uptake in a specific group.

I notice you aren’t calling out the posters who have actually misrepresented the data by saying things like ‘90% of people in icu are unvaccinated’ despite being shown the data that shows otherwise. Why not?

@leafyygreens politically unpalatable perhaps? Considered ‘fat shaming’ ? You only have to look at peoples reactions to it being brought up on MN to see that it wouldn’t go down well.

Nice try!

There have been campaigns for years to reduce and tackle obesity. The Tories don't give a shite about it being "politically unpalatable"

BJ himself did a whole big thing himself about losing weight.

No really - Why do you think no-one like the CMOs/PHE/SAGE has suggested this? Isn't a bit odd that your stroke of genius hasn't been picked up by all those experts?