Do unvaccinated people not see they are part of the problem?

[User135644]

I accept it's people's right whether they get jabbed or not, entirely up to them. However, the more people stubbornly refuse a vaccine then the worse it'll be for all of us. The hospitals will be more stretched and we'll have more restrictions, lockdowns or circuit breakers. People who won't get the vaccine are often the most anti-lockdown or restrictions, yet are part of the problem as to why we'll keep getting them.

Where exactly do they think we'd be without vaccines? We wouldn't have had a relatively normal 6 months or so with everything open, that's for sure.

@leafyygreens obesity is a huge factor in covid morbidity.
The fact that you and your ilk refuse to discuss this is not helpful.

We have some family members who won't have vaccines. They say if you are fit and healthy covid won't be a problem. They are anti putting anything in the body that shouldn't be there. They try alternative therapies for most things. They had covid a few months ago, they say they caught it off someone who was vaccinated. So they say you can still pass it on even when vaccinated. They felt ill for a few days but got over it quickly. They do think older, vulnerable people should be vaccinated though.

Why is it discriminatory?

Everyone on here has said that if someone can’t have the jab through disability, then people don’t have a problem with that.

So where is the discrimination?

What happened to all being in this together? When did that fall apart?

For me it fell apart when some people chose to prioritise their own weird ideas over sensible advice and the well-being of the community

Why is Mumsnet so fixated on Covid when there are barely any Covid patients in hospitals.
Why is there absolutely no concern for the 500 or so people who die every day from cancer - so many deaths which were avoidable.
Where is the compassion for deaths caused by lockdowns? I’m sure all of us know people who died because the National Covid Service refused to treat them.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Why is it discriminatory?

Everyone on here has said that if someone can’t have the jab through disability, then people don’t have a problem with that.

So where is the discrimination?

Because people are appointing themselves as vaccine police and deciding what is a good reason or not.

[quote AdoptDontShop]@leafyygreens obesity is a huge factor in covid morbidity.
The fact that you and your ilk refuse to discuss this is not helpful.[/quote]
Not sure who me and my ilk is?

I'm not refusing to discuss anything! Just saying I disagree with all these claims that obesity is the biggest threat to the NHS right now, when it clearly is not - coronavirus is.

We cannot magically make obese people not obese, and cure them of all the co-morbities that make them vulnerable to COVID. We can carry on the measures that have been ongoing for years and years (obesity is not suddenly an issue) but clearly the most important thing RIGHT NOW that will save lives and minimise disability is to encourage vaccination and address hesistancy. If people do not want to be vaccinated, it would be good if they were happy to consider other alternatives that can help minimise transmission like testing and masks.

As pointed out in the OP, there's a minority of people who do not want to be vaccinated AND do not want to wear a mask/test/ventilate/social distance. And in the end it all boils down to the fact that they are minimising the threat of COVID.

[quote Beadebaser]@bumbleymummy to state that the obese are currently the biggest threat to ICU’s/to downplay Covid is - misinformation. If the consensus of medical thought was that we should be tackling obesity - and not Covid - then they would be stating this.

You appear to think that you know better?[/quote]
According to the latest ICNARC report the median bmis of patients in icu are 30.3 (unvaccinated) , 30.8 (single dose) and 29.6 (vaccinated)

Are you going to say that BMI isn’t a risk factor for admission to critical care?

www.icnarc.org/DataServices/Attachments/Download/e7be23e7-695f-ec11-9139-00505601089b

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@AdoptDontShop

Why is Mumsnet so fixated on Covid when there are barely any Covid patients in hospitals. Why is there absolutely no concern for the 500 or so people who die every day from cancer - so many deaths which were avoidable. Where is the compassion for deaths caused by lockdowns? I’m sure all of us know people who died because the National Covid Service refused to treat them.

Where are you getting your facts from?

@AdoptDontShop

Why is Mumsnet so fixated on Covid when there are barely any Covid patients in hospitals. Why is there absolutely no concern for the 500 or so people who die every day from cancer - so many deaths which were avoidable. Where is the compassion for deaths caused by lockdowns? I’m sure all of us know people who died because the National Covid Service refused to treat them.

You know this is bullshit right?

I can't even be bothered linking the sources for you, let's just leave it with the fact that over 1000 beds in London right now have patients in them where Covid is their primary diagnosis.

If you watched Whitty presenting to the commons, he was very emphatic that cancer operations should still be proceeding, and if we hadn’t licked down initially to protect the nhs then it would have been much worse.

@ChequerBoard also from ICNARC report above:

“ The percentage of patients admitted to critical care with confirmed COVID-19 that were unvaccinated decreased from 75% in May 2021 to 48% in November 2021 (Figure 27), consistent with the decreasing propor􏰀on of the general popula􏰀on who were unvaccinated.
The characteris􏰀cs of pa􏰀ents cri􏰀cally ill with confirmed COVID-19 by vaccina􏰀on status are shown in Table 16.”

@user1477391263

It's funny, vaccine refusers tend to come in two flavors: the ones who think the virus is mostly just a bunch of exaggeration, and the ones who are DEATHLY afraid of the virus but still won't get vaccinated. It's interesting.

I've personally known a few people who fell into the first category, though thankfully several eventually caved and got the jab in the end. They are a curious bunch.

One thing that this group has in common is a tendency to moralize covid and see it as a punishment for being a Bad Person. They think they will not get covid because they are Good. They think that their kids will not get covid and pass it on to them, because their kids are Good and wear masks and they think that masks are some kind of miraculous force field. They rationalize the contact that they do have with friends by rambling vaguely about how "Well, they're careful people" "They are sensible" "They 'don't mix'" [whatever the heck that is supposed to mean--of course they mix, they're mixing with the person in question!].

They indulge in a kind of weird psychological bargaining whereby the fact that they are obediently and solemnly foregoing anything "fun" means that covid virus will take pity on them and choose not to infect them via their kids or their partner's work.

It's like they believe in a God of Pestilence who doles out punishments to the unworthy and will spare them because they are engaging in certain rituals.

You couldn't be more patronising if you tried. Or superior-sounding. No task force to get the unvaccinated on board should ever use you. People would become even more firmly entrenched in their preference to decline the vaccine.

I'm on the fence about having a booster dose You haven't persuaded me to have it one bit

Why is there absolutely no concern for the 500 or so people who die every day from cancer - so many deaths which were avoidable.

There is lots of concern regarding cancer that’s why trillions are spent world wide every year on research and treatment. And unlike Covid, cancer isn’t caused by one single virus for which there is a safe and effective vaccine which gives everyone a 99.9998% survival rate. Cancer is caused by endocrine disrupters, multitude of viruses, exposure to thousands of different carcinogenic chemicals/radioactive minerals and genetic bad luck among many other causes.

To compare cancer deaths to Covid deaths is like comparing the population in one house to the population in a city...they’re not directly comparable. You should be comparing Covid deaths to say cervical cancer deaths from only 1 of the several HPV viruses that cause cervical cancer to do a 1:1 comparison of 1 virus death rate to 1 virus death rate.

clearly the most important thing RIGHT NOW that will save lives and minimise disability is to encourage vaccination and address hesistancy.

This was discussed at length on another thread that I’m pretty sure you were on. If we can see that the median BMI of people in icu is obese/borderline obese - including in the unvaccinated - then one of the best things we can do is try to encourage vaccination and address hesitancy in overweight/obese people. If they are the most at risk of ending up in icu then a targeted campaign could have the most impact on pressure on the NHS rather than trying to encourage healthy 18 year olds to have their third dose in order to get their passport for going to a nightclub.

[quote MummyPop00]@AdoptDontShop

‘I’m sure all of us know people who died because the National Covid Service refused to treat them.’

Well I caught Covid in the first wave, I didn’t die but NHS didn’t want to know, was left gasping for breath at home instead. Probably some fat person already taking up my bed or something maybe? It’s absolutely not on I say.[/quote]
Why is a hospital bed yours? Is your name on it? Why do you think a “fat person” is less worthy, less human and thus less deserving of a hospital bed than you? Your post wins the fat hatred award of the year.

@bumbleymummy

clearly the most important thing RIGHT NOW that will save lives and minimise disability is to encourage vaccination and address hesistancy.

This was discussed at length on another thread that I’m pretty sure you were on. If we can see that the median BMI of people in icu is obese/borderline obese - including in the unvaccinated - then one of the best things we can do is try to encourage vaccination and address hesitancy in overweight/obese people. If they are the most at risk of ending up in icu then a targeted campaign could have the most impact on pressure on the NHS rather than trying to encourage healthy 18 year olds to have their third dose in order to get their passport for going to a nightclub.

Don't beleive I was @bumbleymummy

Again this is a twisting of reality.

It has been shown over and over again that it is better for adults to be vaccinated against coronavirus than not be vaccinated. We are not limited in supplies, therefore is no reason to not encourage uptake for everyone. You keep on with this circular argument and ignore all replies?

Why is there absolutely no concern for the 500 or so people who die every day from cancer - so many deaths which were avoidable

Cancer patients will suffer more in a healthcare system overwhelmed with coronavirus.

The concern around COVID- that seems disproportinate- it because if rates get too high than all other health services are disrupted. You can refuse to treat COVID patients, they have to go somewhere, and so this means who aren't at risk of dying right this instant have their care pushed back or the quality lowered.

@EmpressCixi

I don’t hate fat people. Just pointing out intolerance & hypocrisy isn’t nice. Hope this helps.

You can't refuse to treat COVID patients

Or I simply disagree with you @leafyygreens . We’re all entitled to our opinions. We have been encouraging people to be vaccinated for months but still some people have not and some are ending up in ICU. If BMI is a risk factor for icu admission (and latest data suggests that it most certainly is) then it makes sense to address this directly. There may be overweight/obese younger people who think that they are protected by their age and may not realise that their BMI puts them at increased risk. A targeted campaign could encourage uptake in this vulnerable group - much in the same way targeting older/vulnerable/BAME who were at greater risk, helped to increase uptake. If the goal is to to reduce pressure on the NHS then increasing vaccination in a group more likely to end up in hospital would be more effective than trying to convince a large number of low risk people to be vaccinated when they haven’t so far.

@bumbleymummy

I agree with the other poster here. It’s the twisting I have an issue with too.

I’m not denying that obesity is an issue - but the consensus of medical thought globally is that Covid is the biggest threat as it is an unpredictable and infectious virus that could cause a sudden influx of patients to hospitals and impact care across all services.

Therefore your post is misinformation as you are implying that doctors globally have ‘got it wrong’ and should be tackling obesity.

Which - someone who is already vaccine hesitant - could read - and add your bit of misinformation as another reason not to get it. This is harmful.

[quote bumbleymummy]@ChequerBoard also from ICNARC report above:

“ The percentage of patients admitted to critical care with confirmed COVID-19 that were unvaccinated decreased from 75% in May 2021 to 48% in November 2021 (Figure 27), consistent with the decreasing propor􏰀on of the general popula􏰀on who were unvaccinated.
The characteris􏰀cs of pa􏰀ents cri􏰀cally ill with confirmed COVID-19 by vaccina􏰀on status are shown in Table 16.”[/quote]
What do you understand this is saying?