Independent sage: circuit breaker lockdown needed now

[XmasGoose]

I see Independent Sage have said that an immediate circuit breaker lockdown is needed to protect the NHS.

This would involve a total ban on household mixing, all bars, restaurants and indoor venues closing and schools shutting early for Christmas.

Is this needed now to protect the NHS and save lives? Personally I wouldn’t comply with another lockdown.

twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1471160024005324804?s=21

We have got the people at the top who don't think it is that scary as they are having parties, you have doom mongers like fergussen who doesn't think it's that scary as he was off shagging his mistress. You have Vallance who despite telling people to wear masks didn't at a crowded Wimbledon.

So why do we have to be scared if they aren't.

And many people now think the cost of a lockdown TO THEM is greater than the risk of not locking down. Is that that they don’t understand the risk of not locking down. It’s that they think the cost of lockdown is greater.

@TheVampiresWife

Really interesting to see the difference in opinion now and in the past re potential lockdown. Unless I've missed it, there's not one voice of support on this thread so far. Similar threads last year were very, very different. I wonder how many on this thread have been more supportive of lockdowns in the past? It would be genuinely interesting to know, just to see how much attitudes have changed.

And yeah, the get fucked thing, 100%.

I made the same point on another thread. I've noticed a significant shift in mood recently. Not just online but in 'real life'. More and more people, even those who were all about 'staying safe', are asking what more we are being asked to sacrifice and where we are going with all this. There's only so much you can hold 'but the hospitals will be overwhelmed' over people's heads and expect them to make sacrifices indefinitely.

"We're all in this together" is long gone.

It isn’t, I mean. Get an edit button MNHQ

@Puzzledandpissedoff

If (the NHS) wasn't in such a shit state and manifestly so unfit for purpose, it wouldn't need such regular "saving". Why can't there be an honest conversation about this?

Because it's politically very difficult, and politicians are hardly noted for their courage

That said, while there's at least something left of education, human interaction and the rest, functioning health care's on its last legs - and that applied even before Covid

So instead of constantly parroting "protect the NHS!!" perhaps we should be considering what we'd prefer to replace it (which I've believed to be the Tories' aim from the start, mainly because of the £££ to be made from the fire sale)

Yes

I've been consistently saying that there is a lot of middle ground between the NHS and an American style horror. Germany manages well. Germany is having problems at the moment with Covid of course, because their vaccination programme was so slow.

[quote XmasGoose]@frazzledali

1. Who is going to pay for this adequate financial support? The government has already borrowed a record amount over the last few years. Ultimately we need an economy to fund the NHS.

1. With the best will in the world, you can never replace all income that will be lost.[/quote]

More borrowing. Higher taxes ultimately, I expect.

@IcedPurple I totally disagree. All through the second and third lockdown people were saying they would not comply. And I don’t particularly want a lockdown, who does, but I can’t see any other sensible option.

@Happypootler

It is interesting to see the changing weight of opinion isn't it? And yes to needing an honest conversation about the NHS. It's totally broken, covid or not.

Having had to go through another country's healthcare system (one that is not currently COVID impacted) the NHS really isn't broken. It's over used by some, it's run at almost capacity because of what it costs but it trumps health care in many other places. Should it have more funding? Yes. Should the way that funding is used be looked at because there is almost certainly wastage as there is in any public body? Yes. Does it perform better despite its problems than many other similar bodies? Abso-fucking-lutely.

@Againstmachine

We have got the people at the top who don't think it is that scary as they are having parties, you have doom mongers like fergussen who doesn't think it's that scary as he was off shagging his mistress. You have Vallance who despite telling people to wear masks didn't at a crowded Wimbledon.

So why do we have to be scared if they aren't.

Exactly, right from the outset the worst of the government doom mongers were outed as privately not worried at all.

First pics of the Downing Street parties out today all huddled together with no shits given while families were separated.

[quote Trixiefirecracker]@AnnieSnap they’ll be all smug because even though Granny died due to lack of hospital care, they still secretly got to mix in their households and flip the bird at the government.[/quote]
Many people's "grannies" (or parents, grandads, children, partners, friends) have died already of causes unrelated related to Covid. Before Covid, people died.

[quote Trixiefirecracker]@IcedPurple I totally disagree. All through the second and third lockdown people were saying they would not comply. And I don’t particularly want a lockdown, who does, but I can’t see any other sensible option.[/quote]
Actually, quite a few people are happy enough with lockdowns provided Hugo and Amelie still get to go to school and Ocado still delivers. Some even admit it.

Also, it's not only about 'complying'. It's about questioning the narrative. It's clear to me that that is happening now in a way that wasn't a few months ago.

@HesterShaw1 that’s incorrect though, it’s been wildly publicised that Germany have massively struggled at certain points through the pandemic.
www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-15/german-hospitals-near-breaking-point-with-cases-still-rising

Yes, the British healthcare system is poorly managed.

And as to lockdown, people have started to lockdown themselves… all parties and meals out cancelled for me this year. In order to “save Christmas” …. We’ll see how that goes. Glad I got some fun in these last few weeks, before we have another horror of a winter

Um. Isn't that what I said? "Germany is having problems at the moment with Covid of course".

However German healthcare doesn't crash from crisis to crisis every year between November and March

Hell, we're even told to avoid using our local hospital in the summer because it can't cope with the volume of people needing it.

@HesterShaw1It has struggled in the past, and if you care to read up on it. It suffers massively from underfunding too.
www.aicgs.org/2021/11/challenges-for-the-german-healthcare-system-in-the-covid-19-pandemic-and-beyond/

Quite shocked that some people seem to toss off 'mixing households' as though it were some highly entitled luxury people were demanding. People need people. Human contact is like breathing - people have been without the loved ones for far too long over the last 2 years.

The idea that people can get manage their emotional wellbeing through zoom and rainy socially distanced walks is just not realistic in the long term (and after 2 years we are talking very much long term!)

So instead of constantly parroting "protect the NHS!!" perhaps we should be considering what we'd prefer to replace it

This government want private for profit healthcare model. Awful option imo.

I've been consistently saying that there is a lot of middle ground between the NHS and an American style horror

So have I, HesterShaw, but "Do you want the poor to die, like in America?" is the go-to on here if anyone fails to bend the knee to our sainted NHS

FWIW I get the rationale about paying more tax, but doubt it would work. Just how much do folk imagine would go to the front line, and how much on cronies and yet more managers to decide how to spend it?

"circuit breaker" doesn't do anything to prevent things, with a doubling time of 2 days, all it does is move things by the length of the lockdown and a half - so 2 week lockdown, we're in the same place in 3 weeks, so presumably then there would be another circuit breaker?

And Indie Sage must know this - So they're just being dishonest in their desire, presumably because they think that a drip-drip dishonesty is the way to get agreement and support for their viewpoint, rather than simply being honest and providing their rationale.

For me, the "Zero Covid" people have been a disaster, we could've flattened the curve ensured that the vulnerable and even more were well vaccinated and had infection gradually cover everyone else, had we done that, infection+vaccine immunity which is very good at preventing omicron infection would've dominated now and we would have had a controllable wave. Instead we've got so many naïve people, including now vulnerable people with waned vaccines who can't get a shot 'cos we're giving more doses to the healthy 25 year old.

The NHS may well be overwhelmed now, but a circuit breaker isn't going to do diddly, it's a pretty long lockdown, with proper distancing measures. It may well be though that fewer people will die if we rely on infecting as many people in as short as possible time while the vulnerable boosting is still fresh - 'cos in a months time those 60+ peoples boosters will be waning. A Tough call, but a circuit breaker lockdown does f'all.

Consistent underfunding of health care is not limited just to the British NHS system sadly.

As a nurse in the NHS I can say where I am, we can't hold out for much longer.
I don't know what the answer is, but there really isn't much more we can give. A&E is over run at 9am on a week day, staff are ill from not just covid, but stress. Only a matter of time before we break completely.

Independent sage can piss off. If it were to to them we'd all be at home for the rest of our lives with masks on and weeping hysterically while washing our hands obsessively.

I feel worried both about my son's mental health if human contact has to stop, about the economy, about my NHS workplace (the absence management system has pretty much broken down due to extreme sickness levels) and about my friend's child who is booked in for a non-emergency but extremely important spinal op on 8 January. He's frightened. I don't want him to have to wait any longer.

Have Independent SAGE been asked to float this to see what the response is?

People saying that any potential lockdown will be ignored because of our incompetent government and pm please spare a thought for people working in the health care sector ! We are still recovering mentally and physically from last years carnage and are now facing a repeat ordeal!