Why is it acceptable to be angry with people who don’t want the vaccine?

[Wuishj]

I’ve had both. I didn’t want them initially but after looking into it more, I decided to have them and think it’s the right thing.

But I would never be angry, rude, dismissive of someone who didn’t want the vaccine. I’m finding these discussions very draining - they happen at work, among friends, on the news. Whatever happened to allowing people to decide for themselves as to whether they want to book an appointment and have a needle injected into them?

Honestly, I don’t think it’s the right thing not to have the vaccine but i am astonished at how narrow minded people are that they cannot respect the decision of other people. I think if everyone backed off from blaming other people then they might find that more people DID end up having the vaccine.

Rant over!

@TheDailyCarbunkle Have you forgotten the videos of quiet outpatient wards being spread on social media last winter by anti-vaxxers ‘proving’ that COVID was not really dangerous because hospitals were empty?

There may be limited false information out there, but some of it has been very extensively spread.

I had several friends who decided not to get the vaccine. Note past tense. The one who has always been anti vaccination, actually, I can have a sensible conversation about all this with. I don’t agree with her but I understand her.

The ones who were sucked in by the empty hospitals narrative. Well, one of them has now died of covid, leaving behind an 8 year old daughter. I’m angry about that. And still his widow thinks it’s a hoax.

I disagree that the anti-anti-vaccine rhetoric has made it hard to open a sensible conversation about covid vaccines specifically. I think - and the first friend I mentioned agrees - that it’s very rarely possible to have a sensible conversation about vaccines, full stop. You’re either for them or you’re a dangerous lunatic (her words). But it’s disingenuous to say that the genuinely barmy anti vaxxers (which is very much a subset!) haven’t spread a lot of misinformation. You see it on here all the time, and MN is pretty pro vax.

@Bubblecap this is the one from the BMJ - I linked the Lancet's on a different thread but will try to find it again for you: www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n513

Imprtant to remember the BMJ one is dated earlier this year; however since it also refers to historic vaccine hesitancy it might be unwise to assume much has changed since January

I'm obviously well aware of some of the reasons behind this, but that wasn't my question ... what I asked was how people feel about "restricting the unvaccinated" if this impacts minorities disproportionately

@Bubblecap

Puzzledandpissedoff Sources such as the Lancet and BMJ tell us that large numbers of those choosing to refuse vaccination belong to ethnic minorities, who many of us feel are already marginalised enough

Can you post a link? I’m not disbelieving by the way, my research was around educational outcomes which did include ethnic minorities. I know people automatically cite racism and there will be an an element, I’m an ethnic minority myself, I’m wondering if educational levels and vaccine take up will correlate with the ethnic minority data on educational outcomes.

To address your first point: this is a conundrum. I have read that the reason given for not getting the vaccine is "mistrust". It's not an easy fix.

One can't complain about higher rates of Covid in groups that refuse the vaccine and then complain that there are higher rates of Covid in those groups. (I know that that was not your point.) It's ironic, really.

I don't know if educational levels necessarily equates to vaccine takeup, to be honest. I think it's more of a cultural issue.

Because they're blocking healthcare for everyone.

@TheDailyCarbunkle

The narrative around 'anti-vaxxers' has actually been very cleverly done. There have been a lot of articles about false information and conspiracy theories - and those do exist - but in actual fact the amount of false information out there is very minimal (based on actual detailed research I've done around this for a related subject). It's a tactic that I haven't come across before, which is to write concerned pieces about how awful it is that so much wrong information is being spread around and how terrible it is that there are so many misinformed 'anti-vaxxers.' It's very effective because it immediately discredits anyone who has totally legitimate questions or concerns about the vaccine before they even open their mouths. It stops all discussion and debate - you just get the vaccine or you're awful. Simple as that. And people go along with it, it really works.

You're totally free to ask questions, and people who actually have a clue will be happy to help answer them. You can watch thousands of hours online of people with PhDs in international health policy, epidemeology, medicine etc debating these issues. There are people on here who have degrees in relevant areas and can explain things like mRNA to you.

However you have no interest in asking questions or finding out information. You have made no effort to point anyone towards serious sources of information that back up your views. You just want to shout "SHEEPLE" and run around barefoot with other nutters. I am still waiting to hear even ONE legitimate concern that you have. You say people opposed to voluntarily returning to the dark ages just 'don't want to debate' but you're not debating, you're spouting guff.

It is entirely correct that people like you are discredited, you have no credibility. Zero.

I'm annoyed with people who won't get vaccinated because they put others at risk who can't get vaccinated, or for whom the vaccine turns out not to be effective.

I work in a school. We have parents who refuse to test symptomatic children, so you can bet your bottom dollar we also have parents who won't get vaccinated. They get Covid, they infect little Johnny, little Johnny comes into school and infects a staff member.

Thanks, guys.

@AlfonsoTheUnrepentant I know that. I’m not saying my ASD is the reason. But it’s not making things any easier with regards to my fears either. I’ve become quite fixated on it all.
I was mostly citing my ASD because of my support groups and hoping they won’t be stopping/excluding me because of my unvaccinated status.

It’s unfair and a health risk (physical and mental) for health and social care workers to have to work for long periods in awful conditions. Which would be better with fewer covid patients.

And unfair to other citizens needing care.

[quote Honeyhorse]@AlfonsoTheUnrepentant I know that. I’m not saying my ASD is the reason. But it’s not making things any easier with regards to my fears either. I’ve become quite fixated on it all.
I was mostly citing my ASD because of my support groups and hoping they won’t be stopping/excluding me because of my unvaccinated status.[/quote]
If your support groups are face-to-face then, yes, they should stop you from participating because you are unvaccinated and therefore more likely to catch the virus than people who are vaccinated. If that happens, you can try offering to wear a mask the entire time as a work round but it's not guaranteed that this will be acceptable.

@Honeyhorse

Thanks for all the replies to my OP.

I wrote this on another post, but I’ll repeat it here:

I have a phobia of needles and medical procedures. I’m also scared of vaccines in general.
I haven’t been to the dentist in over 12 years, I’ve never had a smear test.
I find invasive treatments extremely triggering and needles are a part of that for me.
I’m trying to get help with this and have a counselling appointment on Friday. I don’t think I have a low IQ and I’m not selfish, I volunteer for a mental health charity, as well as having ASD myself.

I always try to be a good person, but I feel like I’m going to be ostracised from society because I can’t physically have the vaccine.
To be honest it’s starting to make me feel suicidal. If you need three jabs to be fully vaccinated currently, if and when the covid pass happens, I’ll be unable to participate in my mental health voluntary work or meet my friend for coffee and cake because I assume I won’t be allowed in.

Even if I manage to find the courage to have one vaccine, I won’t be able to have the other two until spring at least, the thought of having three close together makes me feel very unwell and mentally, I’m not sure how I’ll cope with that. Then possibly by the time I’ve had my third , if I do, then there might be a fourth and so on, I’ll be forever catching up and missing out on the only things that keep me going in the process sad I know it’s my own fault for being scared / phobic but I’m starting to feel extremely low about it all.

Friends of mine with extreme phobias and health anxiety issues have spoken to their doctors and managed to get extremely sensitive and much less scary care that had helped them get vaccinated. I'm glad you've started down the path of getting help for this, there are people out there who will be able to help and make you more comfortable. The scary thing about wanting to opt out of health treatments is that you won't always have a choice (unless you plan to simply refuse all treatments at home in the case of a serious accident or illness). Unfortunately you'll have to confront this some day, I hope it can be in a relaxed, supportive environment rather than a more extreme scenario. I know it doesn't help to know that rationally a quick vaccine would be better than hospitalisation, you're dealing with a health issue of your own and it's clearly pretty overwhelming. It's not your fault for being scared, and you're starting down the path of doing something about it. That's a good step.

@Flowers500

I agree with your response to @TheDailyCarbunkle. I haven’t engaged with those posts for the reasons you’ve given. Well said.

They are face to face. I take an LFT before every group though. I’ll be suicidal if I can’t go to them anymore. I know it sounds like an exaggeration but it really isn’t, they’re my lifeline. Surely as mental health group there should be exceptions?

The above was to @AlfonsoTheUnrepentant

@Flowers500 I’ve tried getting a GP appointment and have got nowhere. So the counselling I’ve got booked on Friday, I’m supposed to be paying for even though I’m on universal credit.

@Honeyhorse

They are face to face. I take an LFT before every group though. I’ll be suicidal if I can’t go to them anymore. I know it sounds like an exaggeration but it really isn’t, they’re my lifeline. Surely as mental health group there should be exceptions?

The groups would be cruel as hell to deny a service user time there because they could not get vaccinated and/or wear a mask. I have a friend who relies on support groups for ASD, and half the people going are exempt anyway.

@Honeyhorse

They are face to face. I take an LFT before every group though. I’ll be suicidal if I can’t go to them anymore. I know it sounds like an exaggeration but it really isn’t, they’re my lifeline. Surely as mental health group there should be exceptions?

It's not my place to make rules so I can't comment on exceptions.

Taking an LFT test doesn't mean anything in this instance as it doesn't offer you protection from getting Covid or reduce the affect Covid will have on you if do catch it.

A mask will help block the transmission as the virus is transmitted in the air. (Yes, I know it can also be transmitted on surfaces but this is less of an issue than aerosol transmission in a face-to-face meeting.)

effect not affect.

The groups would be cruel as hell to deny a service user time there because they could not get vaccinated and/or wear a mask.
I have a friend who relies on support groups for ASD, and half the people going are exempt anyway.

And a negative tested unvaccinated person would be less of a risk than an untested vaccinated person.

This is another situation demonstrating how all of this is one big shade of grey, unlike the rigid black and white some insist on viewing it as.

@AlfonsoTheUnrepentant you are being incredibly unfair to Honeyhorse.

You said...
If your support groups are face-to-face then, yes, they should stop you from participating because you are unvaccinated and therefore more likely to catch the virus than people who are vaccinated

That looks to me like you are trying to make up rules and tell her what to do.
Support groups were still allowed even when there were restrictions on gatherings. I honestly can not see them banning unvaccinated service users too, and to scaremonger about that is unfair, especially when many people rely on them to stop feeling suicidal.

@XenoBitch @Honeyhorse and @WanderingFruitWonderer don't ever feel alone in how you are feeling.... there are several people who frequent this board who, myself included, are going through the same. No one chooses to be anxious, scared or phobic. It is not a case of just getting over it or, as someone in this thread actually said... "grow up".

Add me to the small group on here in the same boat! There are probably more of us, but it's hard to admit, as it's embarrassing!

I know a number of people who aren't vaccinated, all have health issues of one sort or another, and/or had bad experiences with the medical profession in the past, so their trust is lost. It's been terribly hard because on the one hand, no-one wants to get Covid or give it to someone else, but on the other hand, there are terrible anxieties to deal with. It's an awful lot more complicated than Bill Gates putting chips in vaccines!

There might/will be restrictions if you are unvaxxed (by choice). Accept this quietly as part of your decision.

This. We have vaccine passes here and I'm sick of those who chose not to be vaccinated whining. You have a choice, make it, but keep quiet if you don't like the consequences.

Because it affects other people. Its like being angry with people who blow cigarette smoke in your face, or who leave dog shit on the path or who drive and don't get regular eye tests. Those things are not legal requirements, and they're perfectly within their rights to do those things, but they can adversely affect others and that is really frustrating and makes people angry.

@gofg

There might/will be restrictions if you are unvaxxed (by choice). Accept this quietly as part of your decision.

This. We have vaccine passes here and I'm sick of those who chose not to be vaccinated whining. You have a choice, make it, but keep quiet if you don't like the consequences.

I agree.

we won't know for quite some time what the impact of mass vaccination will be.

A reduction in infection, transmission, long term complications and mortality @Beachcomber, alongside progession to population-level immunity which will enable us to, at some point in the future, be able to treat coronavirus like 'flu.

You obviously have an agenda, and keep repeating vaccine misinformation over multiple threads despite your posts being deleted.