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Boris Johnson set to approve new Plan B Covid restrictions

410 replies

WineGetsMeThroughIt · 08/12/2021 11:11

Just been announced. But what will this entail I wonder. 🤔

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-boris-johnson-minded-to-move-to-plan-b-of-rules-this-week-sky-news-understands-12489880

OP posts:
GoldenOmber · 08/12/2021 17:07

@WildfirePonie

If people really wanted to help the NHS out, they’d stop smoking, stop abusing drink and drugs, exercise and eat a balanced diet.

Agreed!

Maybe we should start mandating some of those by law? After all if people really cared about preserving NHS capacity above all else, it surely wouldn’t be much hardship to them to have a legal minimum quota of daily exercise and a teetotal country and have to report your 5 portions of fruit and veg a day online, and…

Protecting the NHS at the start of this didn’t mean protecting the NHS against being busy, it meant protecting it against the kind of overwhelming levels of need we saw in India. If we’re now shifting that to “we should protect the NHS from being stretched” then that should change behaviour for things other than covid. Shouldn’t it?

Eve · 08/12/2021 17:10

@the80sweregreat

His on at six , apparently ?
so hes completely ignored the orders of the speaker today at PMQs to address the house first and is yet again breaking parliamentary code.

twitter.com/coffeemadman/status/1468564442262786053

Florianus · 08/12/2021 17:10

@the80sweregreat

His on at six , apparently ?
I hope someone tells the TV channels, as they don't yet seem to have noticed.
weddingpanicomicron · 08/12/2021 17:10

Do you think it will be masks in all indoors places unless you're eating / drinking? And include theatres etc?

JalfreziAtChristmas · 08/12/2021 17:12

@weddingpanicomicron

Do you think it will be masks in all indoors places unless you're eating / drinking? And include theatres etc?
That has been part of plan B since summer.
weddingpanicomicron · 08/12/2021 17:13

@JalfreziAtChristmas was wondering if it will be masks unless seated or masks unless eating or drinking which would hurt hospitality less

IfNot · 08/12/2021 17:13

Not even accounting for all the delayed medical treatment as there isn’t capacity to treat people as they are too busy treating covid patients and unable to ship out the elderly with no medical needs just care needs.

You do understand that hospitals have had nowhere to "ship" the elderly with care needs for decades? Elderly bed blockers have been a problem since Thatcher's day. We used to blame it on Tories, now we blame it on Covid...

IfNot · 08/12/2021 17:15

WildfirePonie

If people really wanted to help the NHS out, they’d stop smoking, stop abusing drink and drugs, exercise and eat a balanced diet.

Agreed!

Maybe we should start mandating some of those by law? After all if people really cared about preserving NHS capacity above all else, it surely wouldn’t be much hardship to them to have a legal minimum quota of daily exercise and a teetotal country and have to report your 5 portions of fruit and veg a day online, and…

For the love of God don't give them ideas!!! Grin

JalfreziAtChristmas · 08/12/2021 17:15

[quote weddingpanicomicron]@JalfreziAtChristmas was wondering if it will be masks unless seated or masks unless eating or drinking which would hurt hospitality less[/quote]
Well, with any luck we will find out at 6. Though the only thing I've seen saying that's happening is a tweet.

Lostinacloud · 08/12/2021 17:17

@CovidMakesThingsHard I wasn’t delving into the maths to make my point. If I could be bothered to argue with people like you who make assumptions about my personality I might be inclined to find the exact percentage likelihood of a 75 year old otherwise healthy adult dying of covid. Off the top of my head though I would imagine that even without 3 vaccines already, they percentage is closer to 98/99%.

Florianus · 08/12/2021 17:19

so hes completely ignored the orders of the speaker today at PMQs to address the house first and is yet again breaking parliamentary code.

Ministerial code, I think. The trouble is, the person who decides if the code has been broken is .... the PM. Angry - but the speaker will be very vexed, I fear.

CloudyStorms · 08/12/2021 17:22

@Florianus

so hes completely ignored the orders of the speaker today at PMQs to address the house first and is yet again breaking parliamentary code.

Ministerial code, I think. The trouble is, the person who decides if the code has been broken is .... the PM. Angry - but the speaker will be very vexed, I fear.

What can the speaker do if he is vexed? Can he ban Mr Johnson?
CovidMakesThingsHard · 08/12/2021 17:28

@IfNot yes having worked it for decades I do understand bed blockers have been there for decades and the whole system is shit. Having people backed out of A&E because someone is sitting on a ward for 6 weeks for a nursing home then they catch a vomiting bug on the ward and die whilst they’re waiting. Just some people think it’s a decision to only treat covid, not seeing that covid people come in dying and needing attention, those with “just” cancer and heart disease aren’t dying that second so priority and triage goes to those who need help to make it through the next 24hours. Some people think it’s a choice, it’s battle triage.

Did you see the hospital trusts that put out requests begging for people to take their elderly waiting for care homes home and lol after them for a few weeks if they were able?

weddingpanicomicron · 08/12/2021 17:30

So fucked off with these cunts

the80sweregreat · 08/12/2021 17:30

@weddingpanicomicron

So fucked off with these cunts
Me too !
Ecina · 08/12/2021 17:33

What it definitely won't entail is any logic. Still, that left the building in March 2020. So now we'll have vax passports to coerce uptake of a vaccine that doesn't stop infection or transmission against a variant that is of about the seriousness of a cold, and which Pfizer et al say only may work.
Grin
Couldn't make it up!

Torres10 · 08/12/2021 17:35

@Jenala

Being vaxxed may reduce spread to some amount, though emerging evidence seems Omicron even less so. I could see an argument for vaccine passports if the vaccine was a highly sterilising vaccine, such as the smallpox vaccine. But it's not.

Which brings us to the crux of the issue, which is at what point is the vaccine worthwhile enough to both override individuals bodily autonomy and restrict their freedoms? Can anyone who feels positive about vaccine passports tell me where the line is? Vaccines as they are will not end covid, as in, cannot stop spread enough to force the virus to die out. So I'd would like to understand what the purpose of vaccine passports is? Just to slow down spread? And how much does the vaccine need to slow the spread in order for the cost (restricting freedoms and stripping individuals of bodily autonomy) to be worth it. If it prevented infection and transmission 10% of the time, would the cost be worth it? 20%? 50%? I'd really like to know what people think and if therefore my own opinion could be changed.

Secondly, if you're positive about vaccine passports, do you have any concern that this is a slippery slope? Are there other instances where bodily autonomy and personal freedom should be overridden for the greater societal good, with forced medical treatments? Could we force substance addicted woman to terminate pregnancies so as to put less pressure on social services? Could we force them to be sterilised if they don't get clean? Could we force adults with severe learning disabilities the same? After all they will need a lot of support and the NHS/social services are on their knees. What about forcing those who could have eye surgery instead of contact lenses to get the surgery in order to reduce the environmental impact of contact lenses? Should we force the very obese to have weight loss surgery if statistically doing so ends up putting less pressure on the NHS?

I realise the above are extreme examples that I'd imagine all, or I'd hope all, of us would think to be bad ideas. But I wonder if those for and against passports are sort of talking past each other. I think people worried about the passports are thinking about wider issues and what this kind of precedent could mean. It feels like a simple measure to help in a pandemic but really it's about really core human values - personal responsibility, bodily autonomy, freedom, choice, personal risk etc. We to varying degrees accept levels of government/state control (think prison/criminal punishment, mandatory schooling, driving licences, car insurance etc) but then we probably all have differing sense of where the line is and at what point personal liberty can be curtailed for greater societal good. For many of us, forced medications in order to take part in day to day life is a step too far, with huge potential ramifications, none of which seem positive. I'm really interested if those who think passports are good are thinking in those wider terms, of if the priority for them is more about a perception of trying to end the pandemic, no matter the cost?

@Jenala - perfectly articulated, thank you!
Lostinacloud · 08/12/2021 17:36

Precisely @Ecina and don’t forget that ministers, diplomats and some of the police will always remain exempt from requiring a vaccine passports. It’s as if none of it applies to them….Hmm

nojudgementhere · 08/12/2021 17:39

@JassyRadlett

I know that vaccine passports being introduced over here won't affect you, being Australian and all that, but I would imagine I'm not alone in feeling extremely angry and frustrated at the news today.

I’m in the U.K.

As I mentioned above to Marsha, my flights home for Christmas were cancelled (again); I haven’t seen my family since 2019, unlikely to see to see them until next August at the very earliest. I have an extremely vested interest in this nightmare ending as soon as possible.

I share your anger at the shitshow this government has been, I’m still pissed off about Delta in April (as my posting history will attest - if I’m a bot I’ve been a sleeper bot for about a decade with a long and varied posting history, just waiting for a pandemic where I get to occasionally point out what the data actually says.)

Being pissed off doesn’t mean we get to make up our own facts. I get that you’re annoyed, and I’m sorry that by trying to be objective and only focusing on the factual content I added to that.

Oops, my mistake! Sorry, thought you were commenting from overseas and that was why you didn't seem concerned about the impacts such a divisive and discriminatory policy would have over here. I think you pretend to be impartial in the hope that people believe your research is somehow better and more valid than anyone elses. It's not! Anyway, all the best. Hope you get home safely and soon.
fromdownwest · 08/12/2021 17:40

I am not mad at the fact they had a party, when I couldn't spend Christmas with my family. I am annoyed that people can not see the real issue here.

If these self serving scum bag politicians had any thoughts that this virus was as lethal as they are making it out to be, with these brutal lock downs, then there is no way they would all get together and have a party.

They would have all isolated.

It shows that they know it is not as lethal as it is made out to be, and they are laughing at our expense.

As Mark Drakeford said - 'I hope none of them are intelligent enough to ask questions'

Total disrgard for us all.

I for one will not be playing any more, I locked down, I wore a mask, I got vaccinated.

Now I want to live.

The NHS is there to protect me and not the other way around.

tillyandmilly · 08/12/2021 17:40

I have just come out of this covid - I can tell you I probably would be dead without my vaccines - I would not wish it on anyone - I am still experiencing breathing issues 12 days after this god awful virus and no I have no previous health issues and early 50’s!

TheScenicWay · 08/12/2021 17:44

@fromdownwest

I am not mad at the fact they had a party, when I couldn't spend Christmas with my family. I am annoyed that people can not see the real issue here.

If these self serving scum bag politicians had any thoughts that this virus was as lethal as they are making it out to be, with these brutal lock downs, then there is no way they would all get together and have a party.

They would have all isolated.

It shows that they know it is not as lethal as it is made out to be, and they are laughing at our expense.

As Mark Drakeford said - 'I hope none of them are intelligent enough to ask questions'

Total disrgard for us all.

I for one will not be playing any more, I locked down, I wore a mask, I got vaccinated.

Now I want to live.

The NHS is there to protect me and not the other way around.

Exactly.
doublemonkey · 08/12/2021 17:47

There are some excellent posts in this thread which give me a glimmer of hope that we, as a society, haven't completely taken leave of our senses.

Thank fuck for that.

LittlestLightOnTheXmasTree · 08/12/2021 17:58

Who catered this party they supposedly had?

JassyRadlett · 08/12/2021 17:59

Oops, my mistake! Sorry, thought you were commenting from overseas and that was why you didn't seem concerned about the impacts such a divisive and discriminatory policy would have over here. I think you pretend to be impartial in the hope that people believe your research is somehow better and more valid than anyone elses. It's not!

None of it is ‘my’ research. I challenge statements that aren’t based on evidence, and provide the evidence for what I’m saying. I try to be clear when I don’t think the evidence points in a particular direction (such as on secondary transmission). I ask for sources for statements in the hope of expanding my knowledge if I’m wrong or behind the times as much as I want to flush out any information for what it is.

It seems really hard for some people to believe that some of us just want to know the information people are basing their statements on, that we want to know what the latest and best data is, that this isn’t about ‘winning’, it’s about having the best information on what’s going on.

As I’ve said, I have views. I don’t pretend t be impartial, but I don’t bring them onto threads about policy for the very reasons you’ve so effectively demonstrated on this thread.

Which of the studies or research I’ve mentioned do you take issue with? You clearly want to try to undermine them by undermining me - and old trope - so which of them do you think are incorrect? Happy to post my sources, even happier to see yours.

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