65% of hospitalisations are vaccinated.

[Twotone]

fullfact.org/health/economist-vaccination-status/?s=09

And again, it’s not just ‘morbidly obese’ level BMIs that put people at risk - see above.

Clearly we have overweight/obese young people who think they don’t need the bacons because they’re young and not morbidly obese. We need to change that message.

except we’ve done the ‘scattergun approach’ for months now and we’ve ended up with a high percentage of unvaccinated people with a BMI>25 in icu.

Well yes obviously If we'd targeted high BMI people there'd be less of them in ICU, but quite probably a LOT more in ICU overall. That's the strategy. Benefit the majority. It's what I'm trying to explain to you. Not sure why you're not getting it.

Need the vaccine* not bacons!

Titchy - this is the third/fourth time that I’ve had to correct you on your idea that I am suggesting we only target high BMI people. I’m not and I’m really not sure why you’re not getting that.

only ever.

@bumbleymummy

And again, it’s not just ‘morbidly obese’ level BMIs that put people at risk - see above.

Clearly we have overweight/obese young people who think they don’t need the bacons because they’re young and not morbidly obese. We need to change that message.

Yes but bmi 23 plus is going to be a load of people especially as 23 to 25 is considered 'normal' range. When I was underweight there were also risks for most illnesses so I wouldn't be surprised if this was also the case- so pretty much everyone aside from a select few best get jabbed. What's the point? Again, fat people know they are higher risk, if they're in denial about their weight I don't think telling people of x weight to get jabbed is helpful.

@bumbleymummy

Titchy - this is the third/fourth time that I’ve had to correct you on your idea that I am suggesting we only target high BMI people. I’m not and I’m really not sure why you’re not getting that.

Sigh. Because finite resources. Targeting costs money. Targeting one group means less resource for other groups. If other groups contain much larger numbers of people then better to use resources at the larger group. Basic maths. Benefit the many not the few.

And lest we forget, this is not the fatty fat fat thread. The unvaxxed - old, fat, slender, middleaged, and even the young and slim - are rocking up in hospitals all over the world in very bad shape and some are not surviving and some are leaving after weeks or months a shell of their former selves.

I find your agenda insidious, bumbleymummy. Good luck this winter.

The other thing to bear in mind is that BMI on its own isn't really considered a particularly useful measure any more. It might, possibly, be a relatively important factor for average white men, but less so for women generally, and for ethnic minorities. It's just too broad-brush.

It's definitely an interesting point, but it's not really an accurate or specific enough measure to be taken on its own. So it wouldn't make sense to base a health policy – any health policy – solely around BMIs.

@titchy I’m not sure why you think changing the message from ‘people with a BMI over 40 are at increased risk’ to ‘people with a BMI over 25 are at increased risk’ would use up a massive amount of resources or why you think that not targeting that group - who make up the majority in icu - would be more productive in decreasing hospital numbers but we’ll just have to agree to differ on that. We’re going around in circles.

@milkyaqua and as you are well aware, some groups are far more at risk than others. You have seen the data.

Your insistence that I must have an ‘agenda’ because I’m expressing an opinion you don’t agree with is a bit ridiculous and sounds a lot like a conspiracy theory. But yes, I hope that more people with high BMIs do decide to get vaccinated this winter and that vulnerable people can all get their boosters quickly and that we see hospital figures falling dramatically as a result. That would be great news for us all. :)

@thing47 they already did include people with BMIs over 40 as part of their health policy. It just needs to be lowered a bit IMO.

and so does having a BMI over 23 (from above) increase your risk of hospitalisation and a BMI over 28 increases your risk of death. I don’t see why people don’t want to acknowledge it.

So BMI of over 23? Or 28? Or (as I notice a few comments ago, under 20?

So anything outwith 20 and 23? Is that inclusive?

Given these are the numbers that you have stated (from research, I'm sure, I'm not doubting that, just clarifying that you are aware of these numbers), why are you still saying to target those above 25?

The majority in icu (>80%) have a BMI over 25 (overweight/obese/morbidly obese) - ICNARC.

But that doesn't fit with the idea that the risk factor is a BMI below 20 or above 23?

I'm sure the majority of those in ICU also wear clothes and breathe oxygen, but they aren't risk factors in covid terms are they?

@GertrudeKerfuffle

I'll try again

This is a terribly misleading graphic, it suggests half of unvaccinated will be hospitalised when in fact it's a tiny TINY minority.

@bumbleymummy You are still messaging against NHS/Government advice.

You are being utterly ridiculous to keep messaging against the scientifically-proven research and healthcare-professional recommended advice. Your antI-vaxx agenda is clear

from the NHS website (www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/coronavirus-vaccine/)

Anyone who gets COVID-19 can become seriously ill or have long-term effects (long COVID). The COVID-19 vaccines are the best way to protect yourself and others

Research has shown the vaccines help:

reduce your risk of getting seriously ill or dying from COVID-19
reduce your risk of catching or spreading COVID-19
protect against COVID-19 variants

EVERYONE should get the vaccine - it's not just for those who are statistically more likely to be very ill.

So even a young fit healthy person should get the vaccine as it helps stop the spread

Anyone choosing not to get the vaccine (other than for medical reasons) is extremely selfish and a major reason why we are having to reintroduce restrictions.

@kittensinthekitchen

I'm sure the majority of those in ICU also wear clothes and breathe oxygen, but they aren't risk factors in covid terms are they?

I’m not really sure what you’re trying to argue here. That a high BMI isn’t a risk factor? The paper above shows that it is and there are a disproportionate number of people in icu with a BMI over 25.

Not messaging against anything Scautish. I’m looking at the data and expressing an opinion. Get over yourself.

I'm not sure I'm trying to argue at all.

Just asking why if - as you've stated - the risk is for those with a BMI below 20 or over 23, you have decided they ought to focus on those with a BMI over 25?

Well I have answered that a few times now - because the ICNARC figures show that over 80% of people in ICU have a BMI over 25.

If you haven’t seen them here they are

And I didn’t state that the risk was for over 23 and under 20 - that’s what the paper showed - a linear increase in risk from BMI 23. I did link to the paper above so you can read what they’ve said in full if you like.

I can believe that 80%+ of people in ICU with Covid have BMIs over 25. But so do 63% of the adult population.

So it's an increased risk, but it's not a massively increased risk. It's not like being 50+, or having diabetes. I'm not sure it's even as dangerous as being male. Also the concept of "focussing on" more than 60% of the adult population is a bit questionable. It's too large a segment for such a focus to make a difference surely?

Also, page 31 of the ICNARC report seems to show that people with BMIs between 25 and 30 are significantly underrepresented in ICU relative to their share of the general population. So although they may be slightly more at risk than someone with a perfect BMI of 22 I'd put the actual higher risk boundary at a BMI of 30, which at least means you're trying to focus on a minority of the population.

I am double vaccinated and I consider myself to be very fit and healthy.
I am in the middle of my 2nd covid illness.
Given how DH and I have felt this week, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. If I was an elderly woman, with underlying conditions, I am pretty sure I would be in my local hospital now.

Anyone who doesn't want the vaccine IMO is insane.

I suppose when approx 63% of the population are overweight or obese they are going to be represented more than those with normal BMI.
No denying BMI is a risk factor but law of averages would make the figure 63% anyway so 80% isn't as big as stretch.

Sorry @PassingByAndThoughtIdDropIn it yook me so long to find data ai missed your post.

[quote Scautish]**@bumbleymummy* You are still messaging against NHS/Government advice.*

You are being utterly ridiculous to keep messaging against the scientifically-proven research and healthcare-professional recommended advice. Your antI-vaxx agenda is clear

from the NHS website (www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/coronavirus-vaccine/)

Anyone who gets COVID-19 can become seriously ill or have long-term effects (long COVID). The COVID-19 vaccines are the best way to protect yourself and others

Research has shown the vaccines help:

reduce your risk of getting seriously ill or dying from COVID-19
reduce your risk of catching or spreading COVID-19
protect against COVID-19 variants

EVERYONE should get the vaccine - it's not just for those who are statistically more likely to be very ill.

So even a young fit healthy person should get the vaccine as it helps stop the spread

Anyone choosing not to get the vaccine (other than for medical reasons) is extremely selfish and a major reason why we are having to reintroduce restrictions.[/quote]
Well said, @Scautish - and yet strangely, @MNHQ is making little to no effort to counteract Covid misinformation, even when there is a marked pattern by a user. I have even had a post deleted because of one single sentence which they are claiming was a personal attack - despite the umpteen attacks on me that they've allowed to stand.

It certainly gives me pause - is there actually Covid denialism among the MNHQ team? This goes beyond 'fair' moderation into platforming dangerous beliefs and protecting posters who are deliberately speeding myths that contribute to concrete harm.