Wtf is going on??!!

[NearlyDown]

I actually think it’s quite scary and a bit strange the amount of people who are happy to have their human rights taken away.

For the record I’m fully vaccinated and I think that the vaccine is brilliant, but it is a medical procedure and I don’t think people that have made the decision not to have said medical procedure should then not be able to participate in society.

This is not at all normal, I can see the hospital beds are getting overwhelmed but this is likely because of viruses that haven’t been able to run through the population normally are making people very poorly.

Which means that this will happen every winter forevermore if we don’t let humans, vaccinated or not just get on with life.

You look at actual data which are deaths from a time where a tiny minority were vaccinated and laughably try to claim that is evidence the vaccine works as these unvaccinated people were in hospital. The current data as Ive shown illustrates over 80% of inpatients for covid are double jabbed.

Where did I say anything about the number of vaccinated people in hospital? I mean, I won’t go into your apparent inability to assess statistics, but whatever argument you’re having here, it has nothing to do with my comments.

I can't think what the ulterior motive would be to be honest (and I'm not generally a massive conspiracy theorist) but the more time goes on the more I think there must be one and there's some other reason for the current coercion tactics to get everyone to accept a jab and boosters. The current stats, media info, briefings, actions being taken don't make any sense and are poorly or unexplained. Not for me.

Ocham’s razor.

If you are having to tie yourself in knots trying to work out an alternative theory, the simplest explanation is probably the right one.

Here the simplest explanation is that you don’t understand the information given.

Provided they won't want "medical procedures" when they become very sick with Covid then fine, they are well within their rights not to take the vaccine now.

I don’t agree with the premise that unvaccinated people shouldn’t be treated, but I do agree if they are refusing the vaccine on the basis it is dangerous, untested, long term side effects and efficacy are unknown, then they will probably want to refuse all the current treatments for Covid as using the same benchmark as they do for the vaccine, this is also true for the treatments.

Really interesting programme on Radio 4's The Spark this morning, about motivated cognition which everyone on every side of every argument would benefit from listening to. It was on at 11am.

@TheAntiGardener I think the equivalence is in how persecution can start on an apparently small scale, and snowball into something far worse. Not in the reason for the persecution or (so far) in the extent of it.

@Northsoutheastwest76

Interesting first post OP or 1st post following name change there. I wonder why?

Because people on here do searches on you. Having one unpopular opinion undermines any other opinion or point you wish to make.

Or maybe OP has said something in OP which is not strictly true and previous posts would contradict it.
Especially as OP has lit tge touch paper and ran.

@Flyonawalk - again, I know what you’re saying but don’t think this works. The persecution of the Jews in Germany was persecution from the off. It could not have happened without a driving force of hatred because there was no logical basis for treating this group differently - that what makes it persecution. You cannot remove the hate element from what happened.

What is being proposed here sounds in principle to be a sensible measure to tackle a public health issue. Could it spiral into something else? Perhaps, but there is no particular reason to suspect it would. And Nazi Germany (built on notions of racial supremacy and with designs to remodel the world along the lines of that ideology) doesn’t really have anything to do with the present situation. An equivalent would be something that began with restrictions or segregation based on rational, well-intentioned grounds that morphed into something harmful. That isn’t Nazi Germany.

@newusername2009

It’s scary how many people think it is ok to segregate society like we are starting to see in a few European countries. It is true that in the Uk in main the restrictions are not a huge problem but how many countries are now going to go dow the route of making the vaccine a legal requirement or you are excluded from society. What happens to those who don’t get jabbed? Do they lose their jobs, their right to a place in society and ultimately surely their lives? I don’t know how you continue to support yourself and family if you lose your job.

Of course currently it is a small proportion of jobs that require vaccine but if Germany say unvaccinated can only have 2 contacts outside of household surely that means they can’t work?

But this is all ok????

People who refuse the vaccine seggregate themselves. They have a choice.

SARS eventually becomes what the flu/ cold us now though. Will the Covid passports still be in place then?
We don’t expect people to carry flu vaccine passports get in to places.

No one checks on MMR or polio or anything else. I’m amazed people aren’t seeing the issue longer term.

@Northsoutheastwest76

Or maybe OP has said something in OP which is not strictly true and previous posts would contradict it. Especially as OP has lit tge touch paper and ran.

Sorry, I haven’t been able to check back all day. I’m reading through and will return.

@Flapjacker48

You sound like the type who "researches" using Facebook and twitter tbh.

I’m sorry, but how do I? I really don’t, I think being opposed to essentially segregating one part of society is in anyway akin to that.

This doesn’t happen anywhere else. People are entitled to their choice, you can’t then shun them for making the “wrong” choice. I’m not an anti vaxxer or conspiracy theorist at all!

@lightisnotwhite

SARS eventually becomes what the flu/ cold us now though. Will the Covid passports still be in place then? We don’t expect people to carry flu vaccine passports get in to places.

No one checks on MMR or polio or anything else. I’m amazed people aren’t seeing the issue longer term.

Well no, because if/when it eventually becomes like flu then it won’t be necessary so are unlikely to be in place. Right now we’re in a different stage of the pandemic where it might be necessary as a first step in order to prevent further lockdowns. If they are still in place when they aren’t necessary, then that’s something we’ll deal with when we get to that stage of the pandemic. The argument that we might not need them in a couple of years, so we shouldn’t introduce them now doesn’t seem to be a particularly strong one to me.

And it isn’t strictly true that nobody checks measles, polio etc. In a lot of states in the US showing your child’s immunisation card is necessary to enrol in Kindergatren. It’s part of the reason why lots of anti-vaxxers home ed.

I don’t understand the posters who are all for this keep using the term medical procedure in quotation marks. It is a medical procedure albeit a minor one but it is one and every human has a right to refuse a medical procedure.

A pp accused me of goading etc as they saw it was my first post. It’s not at all it’s a name change I’ve been on MN many years.

Just because I don’t agree on that people should be penalised for making a decision on their own body doesn’t mean I am “stupid” “do my research on social media”. The fact of the matter is is that a proportion of people are not able to to about their lives unless they are vaccinated.

People have brains and can think for themselves and can decide they don’t want the vaccine for other reasons other than just being “stupid”.

It’s this silly divide that is already happening. I am fully vaccinated but I wouldn’t judge someone for making their own informed choices and I certainly wouldn’t lock them in the house!

@ichundich what is the choice? Live your life like we have done forever or just stay indoors? There isn’t really a choice is there. To be able to live you would need the vaccine. And that’s not a choice.

@Gargellen

It's been proven to not be a virus we can all get 'field immunity' from though. That's why it's such a shit situation.

Keeping the NHS able to cope is vital and that is why we must have lockdowns and keep it in check until we are all vaccinated and immune as best as possible and a drug is developed that can stop it developing to a point it kills people. It really is that simple.

But that is a virus?! That is what viruses do!

The virus doesn’t actually want to kill you it wants to live so it’ll carry on mutating so it can live on us and make us poorly enough to pass it around but not poorly enough that we die.

We all waited in the house under the restrictions for 18 months waiting for this vaccine to make the most vulnerable able to live their lives with this virus. And we have done?

Why are the ones that have chosen not to vaccinate now be punished again and shunned away, not able to live life. It’s their right to refuse.

The quarantine camps in Australia are also v scary. Makes me wonder if people had started to speak up more about concentration camps in the Holocaust would they have been labelled conspiracy theorist or would they have been taken seriously and saved thousands of lives? That's the reason I think we need to give people like OP a fair hearing

Hilarious. I have huge numbers of colleagues and friends who have been through these. They are boring but not exactly the gas chambers and you are making a HIGHLY offensive statement about something you clearly have no idea about. Quite a few people have gone places they know will require quarantine to assist overseas etc and have chosen to do it a few times. So it clearly isn’t that bad!
And yes the teenage escapees who went on an adventure got brought back. No big deal. They are from a vulnerable remote community. Of the things expected of people from remote communities in the NT this is not the one you need to get worked up about! Pregnant women have to spend the last month of their pregnancy 1000km from home. If you have significant health needs you have to move to a town camp in Alice or Darwin so you are near enough a hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10271463/First-sign-Omicon-spreading-Britain-Chart-shows-uptick-CASES-super-variant-hallmarks.html#comments

So seeing as the only ones travelling are double vaccinated and the virus seems to be in double jabbed people why the demonisation of the un jabbed. Sounds like the jabbed are spreading too, look at the steps concert, showing your passport but shock horror omicron spreading there

Never before has the expression, 'If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem' been so apt...

InCahootswithOrwell
Erm ..well you’ve actually given two contradictory points. The fact the US demands a polio vaccination shows that it’s much harder to undo the leash once it’s it’s in place.

Which vaccines do people think should be compulsory as part of society then?

@Nerdygirl

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10271463/First-sign-Omicon-spreading-Britain-Chart-shows-uptick-CASES-super-variant-hallmarks.html#comments

So seeing as the only ones travelling are double vaccinated and the virus seems to be in double jabbed people why the demonisation of the un jabbed. Sounds like the jabbed are spreading too, look at the steps concert, showing your passport but shock horror omicron spreading there

If the unvaxxed are 31% of the population and make up 45% of the cases then that is disproportionate; but they are also liable to occupy an even greater % of hospital beds and a still greater % of ICU beds as it appears they're more vulnerable to severe infection.

That would follow from what has already happened in the Uk and also what is happening in SA. But the details will unfold before our eyes in the next week or 2, won't they.

So let them make that choice @herecomesthsun . Vaccine passports are there to limit the spread , vaccinated people still spreading make this pointless . Both my non vaccinated children didn’t spread to anyone despite the non baxxed being treated like bio hazards.

Alcohol, ibesrity , drugs, sporting injuries take up hospital care. This is their decision, do we penalise them too

It is also interesting that people who have boosters don't seem to be mentioned in the discussions of who's been infected.

The data coming through suggests that boosters give very high levels of immunity,

And you have to have the other 2 doses to get the booster.

@EmmaOvary

Never before has the expression, 'If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem' been so apt...

Every single person was at one point part of the solution. We all locked down until we got the vaccine for the most vulnerable.

The ones who are most vulnerable now have a choice to take the vaccine or not.

And every other person in society now has a choice to take that vaccine, I don’t think penalising a certain group for making their own decision a problem.

@NearlyDown

The virus doesn’t actually want to kill you it wants to live so it’ll carry on mutating so it can live on us and make us poorly enough to pass it around but not poorly enough that we die.

You're right here; it will carry on mutating in unvaccinated people. That's how variants are born. That's why it's so important people as many people as possible are vaccinated.

Why are the ones that have chosen not to vaccinate now be punished again and shunned away, not able to live life. It’s their right to refuse.

Like vulnerable people?