Wtf is going on??!!

[NearlyDown]

I actually think it’s quite scary and a bit strange the amount of people who are happy to have their human rights taken away.

For the record I’m fully vaccinated and I think that the vaccine is brilliant, but it is a medical procedure and I don’t think people that have made the decision not to have said medical procedure should then not be able to participate in society.

This is not at all normal, I can see the hospital beds are getting overwhelmed but this is likely because of viruses that haven’t been able to run through the population normally are making people very poorly.

Which means that this will happen every winter forevermore if we don’t let humans, vaccinated or not just get on with life.

I live in a country where die to the amount of unvaccinated people on the ICZu we're stopping all planable surgeries, chemotherapy, et cetera and one hospital is already deciding not to accept people on the ICU ward who would normally be treated.

What about their rights? Why does the right to be unvaccinatedtrp the rights of other people surviving cancer, or having a job to go ti?

Personally, I think we should stop treating unvaccinated people if they get this virus. Ypur decision, then take the consequence with it.

@BoredZelda

Regardless of this, a vacicnated eldelry person is still more likely to take up NHS resources than an unvaccinated younger person

This is true even without vaccination or covid. It is a feature of our aging population so is pretty moot here.

but if the overriding goal is to "protect the NHS " why are we focusing on vaccination status when things such as weight/age play far bigger parts.

@Anythingbutsnow

Surely the answer to an overwhelmed NHS isn't to lock us all up though. Why not just put more money into the NHS to improve it? Would have been a better use of furlough money.

The quarantine camps in Australia are also v scary. Makes me wonder if people had started to speak up more about concentration camps in the Holocaust would they have been labelled conspiracy theorist or would they have been taken seriously and saved thousands of lives? That's the reason I think we need to give people like OP a fair hearing.

This is so offensive it's unbelievable. How very dare you draw a comparison between the horrors of the holocaust and people who want to fly across the world having to stay in a hotel for a bit.

Shame on you.

Given that there are numerous cases reported of side effects hardly given mainstream media attention it's hardly surprising

Your problem there is that you start from the premise that mainstream media have ever been any good at reporting on scientific issues. Or that they should be considered a source of proper information.

It was largely the mainstream media that drove the ridiculous situation with MMR and look what happened there. Ditto the AZ blood clot over reaction.

Perhaps you should try looking at the actual data, as I have done.

@521Jeanie

Provided they won't want "medical procedures" when they become very sick with Covid then fine, they are well within their rights not to take the vaccine now.

Perhaps they should also consider taking out insurance or remortgaging their house in case they end up in hospital unnecessarily - I'm sure they wouldn't want to see the NHS out of pocket from their decision not to get vaccinated.

But then again, given they're around twice as likely to pass the virus on than an unvaccinated person, they should also commit to staying at home and away from others so they don't infect anyone else.

We ALL need to do our bit here - and that's why I got vaccinated. It's not about me, it's about our society.

To summarise then, an overweight junk food gobbling smoking alcoholic deserves NHS treatment but someone electing not to take a vaccine exercising body autonomy leading a clean living lifestyle doesn't.. great plan.

Can you post a reputable study showing your vaccinated people are half as likely to pass on covid as you claim?

@BlueskiesAbove I don't think you understood the point I was making. I was explaining what it means when people say that there are more vaccinated than vaccinated people in hospital, when the vaccination level is high. Your comment has nothing to do with that point at all.

but if the overriding goal is to "protect the NHS " why are we focusing on vaccination status when things such as weight/age play far bigger parts.

Because those are societal issues which are long ingrained in the NHS and tinkering with it to suit covid would be a sticking plaster at best but would likely be ineffective. It needs a systemic review to fix that problem, but is absolutely why the NHS needs protecting right now. If we had solved that problem a decade ago, the NHS would be coping better now.

They have to look at this as an individual issue and make policy based on that.

Vaccinated than unvaccinated, obviously
Can't wait until I never have to type those words again!

@TheSandgroper

I don’t get it. You know there are people in iron lungs, don’t you? When Salk and Sabin came on the market, I don’t think anyone asked about human rights. They just took the first vaccination offered to them.

You do know, don’t you, that polio hasn’t died out? It’s just held at bay. Look around you. How many people with it do you see? Do you not realise that everyone who follows an approved vaccination schedule from birth receives a vaccination for polio? And diphtheria? And a whole heap of others? Look up post-polio syndrome. Some of the effects can be life long.

You are living your comfortable life safe because others before you did the hard work. Now, it’s our turn.

Absolutely this!

@BoredZelda

Given that there are numerous cases reported of side effects hardly given mainstream media attention it's hardly surprising

Your problem there is that you start from the premise that mainstream media have ever been any good at reporting on scientific issues. Or that they should be considered a source of proper information.

It was largely the mainstream media that drove the ridiculous situation with MMR and look what happened there. Ditto the AZ blood clot over reaction.

Perhaps you should try looking at the actual data, as I have done.

You look at actual data which are deaths from a time where a tiny minority were vaccinated and laughably try to claim that is evidence the vaccine works as these unvaccinated people were in hospital. The current data as Ive shown illustrates over 80% of inpatients for covid are double jabbed.

@BlueskiesAbove I tend not to engage with bullies who resort to their goto “if you don’t agree with me you’re dim” name-calling response.

Anyway, this is for the readers who want to make an informed decision based on official ONS stats instead of listening to antivaxxers with an agenda:

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsinvolvingcovid19byvaccinationstatusengland/deathsoccurringbetween2januaryand24september2021

Link title: Deaths involving COVID-19 by vaccination status, England: deaths occurring between 2 January and 24 September 2021 .

Between 2 January and 24 September 2021, the age-adjusted risk of deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19) was 32 times greater in unvaccinated people than in fully vaccinated individuals. Check Table 1.

The weekly age-standardised mortality rates (ASMRs) for deaths involving COVID-19 were consistently lower for people who had received two vaccinations compared with one or no vaccinations.

Of course there are more vaccinated people in hospitals right now due to the vaccination roll out in the UK but we also need to look at the mortality rate between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals and those suffering only with minor complications after COVID-19 infection due to vaccination and a larger percentage of unvaccinated individuals admitted to ICU.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin

Make an informed choice for the safety of yourself, your family and others around you ☺️

Not the point of the comparison, I know, but if they invented a vaccination against obesity, I bet it would not require government intervention to encourage its use ...

@NearlyDown

I actually think it’s quite scary and a bit strange the amount of people who are happy to have their human rights taken away.

For the record I’m fully vaccinated and I think that the vaccine is brilliant, but it is a medical procedure and I don’t think people that have made the decision not to have said medical procedure should then not be able to participate in society.

This is not at all normal, I can see the hospital beds are getting overwhelmed but this is likely because of viruses that haven’t been able to run through the population normally are making people very poorly.

Which means that this will happen every winter forevermore if we don’t let humans, vaccinated or not just get on with life.

Well said OP! Totally agree. If only more people on Mumsnet would read about the "nudge unit" and how behavioural techniques have been used to hypnotise and socially engineer the public to behave and react in certain ways with regards to the pandemic. I think most intelligent people would be shocked and appalled.

Between 2 January and 24 September 2021, the age-adjusted risk of deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19) was 32 times greater in unvaccinated people than in fully vaccinated individuals
I have to say that I didn't realise the different was this high ... surprised me when I followed your link and read it.

[quote ravenmum]@BlueskiesAbove I don't think you understood the point I was making. I was explaining what it means when people say that there are more vaccinated than vaccinated people in hospital, when the vaccination level is high. Your comment has nothing to do with that point at all.[/quote]
I understand the point you're making but there are still people claiming more people in hospital overunning the NHS are unvaccinated compared to the vaccinated demographic. There is also a major point which you are failing to address, how much NHS resources are taken up giving out these vaccinations and how overstretched will the NHS be when hospitals are overrun with patients having not been able to access a GP in the case of many for lengthy periods?

There are ACTUAL human rights like the 'Childs right to life' (an actual international 'right' that states any child born alive is entitled to any life saving treatment that is available but which isn't being upheld due to 'after birth abortion' in several countries where children passed viability are left to suffocate, freeze or starve to death if their parents reject them) that is still being fought and lost in courts and people are moaning about masks, the offer of free medical treatment and missing parties.

No one's 'human rights' are being taken away, you aren't being killed, tortured or persecuted, no necessity is being denied to you - it's just your sense of entitlement is being challanged.

@ravenmum

Between 2 January and 24 September 2021, the age-adjusted risk of deaths involving coronavirus (COVID-19) was 32 times greater in unvaccinated people than in fully vaccinated individuals I have to say that I didn't realise the different was this high ... surprised me when I followed your link and read it.

Why would you be surprised there were 32 times the number of unvaccinated people in hospital from January this year when the vast majority even the elderly were not double jabbed? To classify as fully vacicnated you need to be double jabbed, what percent of people were double jabbed when this " study " started?

There is also a major point which you are failing to address
So, soooooo many major points I am failing to address. Fortunately I'm not in charge.

@churchofthepoisonmind

What about the rights of disabled and vulnerable people to be able to live their lives free of the fear of catching something that will kill them. To be able to go about their daily business free from impediment. And no, before everyone starts “they can be vaccinated” is not the answer there Well that's what we were told was the answer. Vaccines were the saviour, we were told how amazing the scientists were and so on. But now it seems that people being vaccinated to protect themselves is not enough. They also need other people to be vaccinated to protect them. The whole thing is just absurd.

You were also told that the pandemic isn’t over until it’s over everywhere and that unmitigated spread increases the possibility of mutations that would evade the vaccine or lead to mutations that cause more severe disease in younger age groups.

The vaccine was very effective at stopping infection and transmission as well as severe disease in wild type and alpha. It is less good with delta, hence why we are seeing more cases among vaccinated people than we were. It’s likely to be less so with omicron, but it’s not unexpected.

The problem is largely with politicians (Boris) in the U.K. delivering their messages as scientifically illiterate campaigning slogans. If we had better more mature politicians in this country who could actually lead and weren’t completely self interested and corrupt we’d probably have a better chance at the general population having a better understanding of the situation. I believe most people would do the right thing if the situation is properly explained and government led from the front.

The lack of that has led myths like masks don’t work or vaccines don’t prevent transmission or the nhs would cope if it were better organised or better funded to proliferate on social media.

Why would you be surprised there were 32 times the number of unvaccinated people in hospital from January this year when the vast majority even the elderly were not double jabbed?
Why do you keep repeating that it's from January, when it's from September?
(Sorry to be rude if you are dyslexic or something!)

I am shocked too OP. It’s shows the power of behavioural nudges and group thinking. Why does no one question why countries with 100% vaccination rates are having issues , why no one talking about the drip drip of news around adverse reactions such as from AZ yesterday , why no consideration of antibodies due to natural infection? Why no mention of the many other reasons ICU are full and not because of covid. Why no mention of all the cancer deaths ? Why the no concern of government breaking their laws such as lock down ? It’s baffling that if these are ever mentioned there’s always any excuse made but any narrative the other day is shut down and the poster called stupid.

We have a Covid passport in the Netherlands, along with most of the EU and it is actually quite handy. It is not a form of ID, just shows I have been double vaxxed. I cannot understand why with a global pandemic, and a vaccine, people are so fecking militant about not getting vaccinated, unless you have a medical reason it is just bloody selfish and will keep us locked down for much longer, our numbers are skyrocketing due to unvaxxed people

@mam0918

There are ACTUAL human rights like the 'Childs right to life' (an actual international 'right' that states any child born alive is entitled to any life saving treatment that is available but which isn't being upheld due to 'after birth abortion' in several countries where children passed viability are left to suffocate, freeze or starve to death if their parents reject them) that is still being fought and lost in courts and people are moaning about masks, the offer of free medical treatment and missing parties.

No one's 'human rights' are being taken away, you aren't being killed, tortured or persecuted, no necessity is being denied to you - it's just your sense of entitlement is being challanged.

A basic human right is to decide what medical intervention to undergo, not submit to the state for injecting every few months. Your child analogy is irrelevant in comparing 1 horror to another- you wouldn't say well GBH is ok because I know a murder down the road.

@ravenmum

Why would you be surprised there were 32 times the number of unvaccinated people in hospital from January this year when the vast majority even the elderly were not double jabbed? Why do you keep repeating that it's from January, when it's from September? (Sorry to be rude if you are dyslexic or something!)

The study is from January to September, do you understand what from means or just dim?

The study is from January to September, it's not rocket science