Wtf is going on??!!

[NearlyDown]

I actually think it’s quite scary and a bit strange the amount of people who are happy to have their human rights taken away.

For the record I’m fully vaccinated and I think that the vaccine is brilliant, but it is a medical procedure and I don’t think people that have made the decision not to have said medical procedure should then not be able to participate in society.

This is not at all normal, I can see the hospital beds are getting overwhelmed but this is likely because of viruses that haven’t been able to run through the population normally are making people very poorly.

Which means that this will happen every winter forevermore if we don’t let humans, vaccinated or not just get on with life.

I agree about forcing people into vaccinations OP. The moment we start taking choice away, it’s a very slippery slope.

However I disagree with people berating others for their risk assessment and decisions. I for one would rather see how serious omicron is for toddlers/young children after the recent worrying reports as I have a nearly 2 year old who can’t be vaccinated currently. I don’t think I’m stupid or giving up my human rights by choosing not to go to a Christmas party until there are more facts about the new variant.

[quote Dishhh]@NearlyDown

The virus doesn’t actually want to kill you it wants to live so it’ll carry on mutating so it can live on us and make us poorly enough to pass it around but not poorly enough that we die.

You're right here; it will carry on mutating in unvaccinated people. That's how variants are born. That's why it's so important people as many people as possible are vaccinated.

Why are the ones that have chosen not to vaccinate now be punished again and shunned away, not able to live life. It’s their right to refuse.

Like vulnerable people?

[/quote]
It’s not only infecting unvaccinated people though is it? We can’t stop a virus mutating. It will mutate to live on us as vaccinated people too! It’s aim is to kill the anti bodies we have. And it’ll always to continue to.

Vulnerable people now have access to the vaccine if that is there wish.

Nobody said actually do you know what for majority of the population this virus is a mild virus and I can live with herd immunity but you can’t so just stay in forever.

Because that’s what we do as a society!! We don’t just segregate certain people. It’s dangerous IMO.

[quote Dishhh]@NearlyDown

The virus doesn’t actually want to kill you it wants to live so it’ll carry on mutating so it can live on us and make us poorly enough to pass it around but not poorly enough that we die.

You're right here; it will carry on mutating in unvaccinated people. That's how variants are born. That's why it's so important people as many people as possible are vaccinated.

Why are the ones that have chosen not to vaccinate now be punished again and shunned away, not able to live life. It’s their right to refuse.

Like vulnerable people?

[/quote]
It can still mutate in vaccinated people. It could also mutate in animals.

The vulnerable were never mandated to lockdown. It was advised, but ultimately their choice.

@XenoBitch

It can still mutate in vaccinated people. It could also mutate in animals.

The vulnerable were never mandated to lockdown. It was advised, but ultimately their choice.

It can mutate in vaccinated people, but it has less opportunity as vaccinated people are less likely to be infected in the first place. The virus also replicates more in the unvaccinated; this can lead to mutation.

The unvaccinated are also not mandated to have vaccinate, either. They have a choice. The vulnerable do not and have never had a choice about their condition, yet they were required to shield for many months. You know that on here there were many calls for them to just stay at home while every else "got on with life" - as if they did not also deserve a life.

[quote Dishhh]@NearlyDown

The virus doesn’t actually want to kill you it wants to live so it’ll carry on mutating so it can live on us and make us poorly enough to pass it around but not poorly enough that we die.

You're right here; it will carry on mutating in unvaccinated people. That's how variants are born. That's why it's so important people as many people as possible are vaccinated.

Why are the ones that have chosen not to vaccinate now be punished again and shunned away, not able to live life. It’s their right to refuse.

Like vulnerable people?

[/quote]
It's tricky. I have had three vaccines and due a booster in 8 weeks. Not sure if I have antibodies, covid isn't likely to be mild for me (I can't fight infections)
Still feel like everything is on hold but it's more a new normal for me. Don't socialise, try to avoid busy places, cancelled Christmas.. etc etc etc

Then it's frustrating when you see all the FB comments about "it's just a cold/Im not wearing a muzzle/fuck the vaccine" and I think well if you do end up in hospital then will you refuse all treatments and to wear a mask then? I'm not keen on the shit side effects from my medications and I hate injecting myself but when it comes to doing that or being dead, it was a pretty easy choice

I protect myself as much as I can as people have said on here it's up to me but the one thing I can't control is people leaning over me/standing in my space in shops. And the whole thing that seems to be vulnerable means elderly/about to keel over. Still working FT here with a normal life expectancy!

@vera99

Well some of you here voted for Brexit and Johnson and here we are ...

Here we go again. Covid can’t be totally blamed on flipping brexit and BJ.

‘‘Tis very strange. So many of these types of posts from an OP include, somewhere along the line “but I’m fully vaccinated”.

@Furries

‘‘Tis very strange. So many of these types of posts from an OP include, somewhere along the line “but I’m fully vaccinated”.

Why? It is a disclaimer because otherwise they will get labelled as an anti-vaxxer. You can be fully vaccinated and be against any sort of mandate.

[quote Kohby190]@Dishhh not entirely true. They have been used for people in communities in NT where there have been outbreaks. The premier Michael Gunner stated that people were being held there from parts of Katherine in the NT.[/quote]
Offs. They are not “held there”, like they’ve been put in jail. Some people have living situations where it is not possible for them to isolate from the rest of their household so they are able to isolate there, and because in Australia it’s still a big deal if someone gets covid, we try to stop it spreading ESPECIALLY TO THE REMOTE COMMUNITIES IN THE NT WHO ARE AT SERIOUS RISK. We’d rather them not die, we’d rather not have the deaths the uK has had, and the government encourages social responsibility unlike some posters on this thread who are selfish and very special and clever because they know things about covid that experts do not.

@NearlyDown - “ The virus doesn’t actually want to kill you it wants to live so it’ll carry on mutating so it can live on us and make us poorly enough to pass it around but not poorly enough that we die.” You do realise that statement is a pile of steaming bullshit, surely? Viruses are not known to have active intentions. If they did, they might well want to kill off the human species entirely, for the sake of all other life on the planet. There is no rule to say virus mutations will always result in milder illness and lower death rates.

Smallpox existed for thousands of years and killed off around 30% of people who got it. It didn’t get milder - it had to be eradicated altogether by vaccination. Do you think modern life and current world populations would be sustainable if we got another virus like that one and couldn’t find an effective vaccine to kill it off or massively reduce its severity? Then there’s ebola - 90% death rate and the outbreaks do keep cropping up. Fancy letting that one rip to see if it mutates to something less deadly before it’s wiped out 90% of the population? What are your views on compulsory vaccination for something as deadly as smallpox? What are your views on modern life and modern expectations? Do you want to retain modern healthcare services? Safe and secure infrastructure? What are you willing to lose out on to preserve the right to refuse having a vaccination? Is the right to refuse vaccination a priority for you in all circumstances, or is it just your understanding of this specific coronavirus that leads you to conclude it is wrong in this context?

I really don’t, I think being opposed to essentially segregating one part of society is in anyway akin to that.

I’ll ask again whether you were this vocal about the segregation of CEV, elderly, and disabled people fright from the start off this? Particularly the continuing of it when all restrictions were removed? Boris’ freedom day resulted in the segregation of those people. Can you point us to your post last year or this July concerned about “human rights”

Or prior to Covid where policies have led to the segregation of disabled people. Where were you then?

Or is it only now that it is happening to a very vocal group of people who are not usually othered that we are supposed to be concerned?

@BoredZelda

I really don’t, I think being opposed to essentially segregating one part of society is in anyway akin to that.

I’ll ask again whether you were this vocal about the segregation of CEV, elderly, and disabled people fright from the start off this? Particularly the continuing of it when all restrictions were removed? Boris’ freedom day resulted in the segregation of those people. Can you point us to your post last year or this July concerned about “human rights”

Or prior to Covid where policies have led to the segregation of disabled people. Where were you then?

Or is it only now that it is happening to a very vocal group of people who are not usually othered that we are supposed to be concerned?

As well as using the tried and tested tactic of derailing, you are simply inventing a narrative that does not exist @BoredZelda. The CEV, elderly etc were not segergated. One of the whole arguments at the start of all this was that the healthy and young were pissed off at being forced to lockdown when this virus barely represented a threat to them. They did the right thing for society, they had no choice. Onto the point you are attempting to derail, you don't even need a GCSE in history to tell you the dangers about the road we are going down by segregating and 'othering' large swathes of society. This has been tried before and it did not end well. People are vocal on this for good reason and I am frankly astonished that this needs breaking down and spelling out for people in detail. Let us also be clear here: this is about us all. If you think that the segregation of the vaxxed and unvaxxed will lead to some future utopia where the latter miss out on all the fun while the former live happily ever after, well, good luck to you.

You do realise that statement is a pile of steaming bullshit, surely?

Not entirely bullshit. You gave a couple of examples where this hasn’t happened, but it is usually the cases that viruses tend not to mutate to kill their hosts. The situation with smallpox and Ebola are a little different because the original iterations were so deadly that letting them evolve until they were less virulent was never an option. We can’t really say what would have happened if no mitigation measures were in place. There have been others too. Spanish flu got worse not better.

A virus doesn’t have to have sentient intentions, but like many things in nature they tend to evolve to avoid dying and by and large, this is true of viruses. However, the mutation process is complex so nobody can say with any certainty that this will evolve to be minor.

The CEV, elderly etc were not segergated

Yeah, we have been.

Not saying it's anyone's fault. But our lives bear no resemblance to the lives of people not in the 'vulnerable' category right now, and most normal, everyday activities aren't available to us.

I think sometimes desperate means call for desperate measures, viruses are less likely to mutate if somehow curtailed from ripping through the population. We don’t want lockdowns or stricter measures, so that hasn’t seemed to work or now be much of an option. Vaccines will help prevent more variants but we have to get that number up and not just in the U.K. but worldwide. Otherwise it’s just an endless merry-go-round of variants, each one has the capacity to evade current vaccines and be more virulent. Yes, on the surface mandatory vaccines seem such a worrying concept but what are our choices? This new variant seems to be evading everything and from what I have read, may be more virulent in children. We are in crisis mode and wil be for some time. Vaccines do help so those refusing or avoiding or who haven’t made their mind up are part of the problem, sadly. I wish it weren’t so but it is.

I repeat a question from earlier. To those calling for mandatory vaccines, would you be happy for non-vaccinated to be forcibly vaccinated? Because that is the only logical end game here with 15m in Germany still not vaccinated (and the majority refusing to change there minds, one would guess).

Well, I expect the hope is that the boredom of restrictions will encourage some considerable number sitting on the fence to get vaccinated. The discussions about whether a vaccine mandate is still necessary will be held in February and may not result in mandates.

@churchofthepoisonmind

As well as using the tried and tested tactic of derailing, you are simply inventing a narrative that does not exist @BoredZelda. The CEV, elderly etc were not segergated. One of the whole arguments at the start of all this was that the healthy and young were pissed off at being forced to lockdown when this virus barely represented a threat to them. They did the right thing for society, they had no choice.

Onto the point you are attempting to derail, you don't even need a GCSE in history to tell you the dangers about the road we are going down by segregating and 'othering' large swathes of society. This has been tried before and it did not end well. People are vocal on this for good reason and I am frankly astonished that this needs breaking down and spelling out for people in detail.

Let us also be clear here: this is about us all. If you think that the segregation of the vaxxed and unvaxxed will lead to some future utopia where the latter miss out on all the fun while the former live happily ever after, well, good luck to you.

The elderly, vulnerable and disabled absolutely were segregated (as much as I dislike using that word). Disabled people, in particular, as a category of people are used to being shunned, othered and shut away, as this pandemic has been no different. This has occurred over many centuries. They have no choice in this.

The unvaccinated, however, as a category of people, have a choice. The choice is based on medical need; it is not about religion, ethnicity, disability, dogma etc. It is offensive to claim that they are now suddenly now a victimised group when they have put themselves there - and their continued existence puts strain on the actual vulnerable groups that still do exist.

@Dishhh give me just one example of how the groups you mentioned were treated any differently at all during the pandemic. Just one.

@Furries

‘‘Tis very strange. So many of these types of posts from an OP include, somewhere along the line “but I’m fully vaccinated”.

I know what you mean; it’s obviously the current line to take.

@AvocadoTrees actually they are held there. They are not free to leave when they please and at last count there were 5 people that had escaped and were found and taken back.

It is not a choice to go and they risk a $5000 fine for not complying.

Whatever excuses you use to justify this treatment will never be ok with me.

Also let’s not lose sight of the fact that Australia as a whole has 86% of the eligible population vaccinated and the NT has 89% so these kinds of extreme restrictions are unnecessary.

Furries

‘Tis very strange. So many of these types of posts from an OP include, somewhere along the line “but I’m fully vaccinated”

@Furries Ask yourself why that is - seriously. It is a line I would use. As soon as you say you are unvaccinated, you are stigmatised and branded all sorts of things. People like me did not create that environment and I wish it was not like this.

[quote Kohby190]@AvocadoTrees actually they are held there. They are not free to leave when they please and at last count there were 5 people that had escaped and were found and taken back.

It is not a choice to go and they risk a $5000 fine for not complying.

Whatever excuses you use to justify this treatment will never be ok with me.

Also let’s not lose sight of the fact that Australia as a whole has 86% of the eligible population vaccinated and the NT has 89% so these kinds of extreme restrictions are unnecessary.[/quote]

Do you live there?

[quote churchofthepoisonmind]@Dishhh give me just one example of how the groups you mentioned were treated any differently at all during the pandemic. Just one.[/quote]

They had to shield, in most (but not all) cases.

They were blamed for lockdowns while bearing the deaths initially.

Told they should continue to stay in so everyone else's lives could resume

That's just off the top of my head.

[quote churchofthepoisonmind]@Dishhh give me just one example of how the groups you mentioned were treated any differently at all during the pandemic. Just one.[/quote]
Seriously?
The shielding programme advised us to stay completely away from everyone, including family, for months. To live in a room on our own, eat on our own, sleep on our own, do not touch anyone, do not go within two metres of anyone. And lots of us followed it as far as we could because our doctors advised us to.
Then there was all the rhetoric:

they're going to die soon anyway so why should we keep suffering for them?

They should just shield so we can get on with our lives. GBD, anyone?

Why are the young and healthy giving so much up for 'them'?

'Save the grannies'

They're a burden on the economy as it is because they don't contribute, now they're causing everyone else pain.

Only (insert number) have died who don't have underlying conditions. Everyone who died was going to die anyway. (Cheers, I should have a good many years left, but hey)

Etc, etc.

I can assure you as someone on the shielding list that I've been othered, hated, ignored. Mostly on threads like this. It's been an incredibly distressing time for sick and disabled and elderly people; we've felt more and more that we are burdens, we are the problem, we should just get out of the way and die already so everyone else can crack on.