Are you really prepared to take every single vaccine

[Talsaml]

It worries me that we may have to keep having vaccines going forward. I’m due my booster which I will take but I’m hearing that AZ are in the process of tweaking the current vaccine to combat the new strain. So we are then required to take another booster. Many variants can crop up, suppose another one does very soon. I’m concerned about the number of vaccines we could be taking. Is anyone else? And no I’m not an anti vaxer.

[quote nojudgementhere]@Ollyollyoxenfree - yeah, good point! I totally think eveyone should have the choice to have the vaccine or encourage their teens to have the vaccine if that's what they think is right for them.[/quote]
definitely, and we need better communication from the government on why vaccine policy changes (but I am not holding my breath )

I know it isn't the government, but I've personally found the Newscast or More or Less podcasts quite useful for following the tos and fros of policy. Even if you don't agree with all the presenters' political leanings they still explain some of the science/logic reasonably clearly.

Here in Germany I can't say anything has been explained any better - and to make it harder to follow, the policy is different in each of the sixteen states. Information is bad enough at the best of times due to that system, even without the fact that scientists are working full pelt and coming up with new insights all the time.

@PurpleDaisies

We have no such luxury with CV, we'll have just a few weeks warning before it will be upon us, so should Omicron be vaccine resistant, it will take approx 6 months before the vulnerable are all vaccinated.

I don’t think I’ve heard anyone from the scientific community saying they’re expecting the vaccines to be totally ineffective against severe disease and death. Yes, a drop in effectiveness is likely, especially for infection but the situation you’re talking about isn’t probably.

Unlike Flu, CV vaccines have to be highly effective against serious illness and again unlike Flu, we have no warning what new variants we will get.

We simply do not have the timescales to develop new vaccines each time another variant proves to be resistant.

Moderna say 3 months to tweak the existing vaccine, then manufacture, then get into the population... its not a practical option, esp if we have to vaccinate the RoW too.

I am not sure why some get so upset at others for voicing concerns, or even the actual anti-vax views. And I say this for a few reasons:

1. If you are vaxed then you are protected so what does it matter what others do - and dont talk to me about the NHS collapsing. As far as I am concerned its been collapsed for the last decade.

1. Would I rather be in a room of vaxed people or unvaxxed; probably the latter because then in all likelihood they will be coughing like crazy and I know to run the fuck out of there quick sharp; as opposed to spending an evening conversing with someone asymptomatic.

And lastly I don't know whether this is true but I have been wondering...

1. Is there not a risk of the more this virus spreads against vaccinated people, the more evolutionary pressure its applying on it to mutate away from the protection of the vaccine? Ie. did Omicron mutate in someone with the vaccine or without?

@LemonSwan

I am not sure why some get so upset at others for voicing concerns, or even the actual anti-vax views. And I say this for a few reasons:

1. If you are vaxed then you are protected so what does it matter what others do - and dont talk to me about the NHS collapsing. As far as I am concerned its been collapsed for the last decade.

1. Would I rather be in a room of vaxed people or unvaxxed; probably the latter because then in all likelihood they will be coughing like crazy and I know to run the fuck out of there quick sharp; as opposed to spending an evening conversing with someone asymptomatic.

And lastly I don't know whether this is true but I have been wondering...

1. Is there not a risk of the more this virus spreads against vaccinated people, the more evolutionary pressure its applying on it to mutate away from the protection of the vaccine? Ie. did Omicron mutate in someone with the vaccine or without?

On your third point - diphtheria, tetanus, polio, meningitis, influenza, smallpox, yellow fever, measles, mumps and rubella haven't become more deadly with vaccination. Neither has TB.

They think omicron arose in an immunocompromised patient who couldn’t clear covid so it was able to mutate many times within them

@NeverDropYourMoonCup
@allPurpleDaisies

Well this is at least some good news!

@LemonSwan “1. If you are vaxed then you are protected so what does it matter what others do - and dont talk to me about the NHS collapsing. As far as I am concerned its been collapsed for the last decade”.

Because it’s been underfunded by the Tories for 11-years!

Lemon swan I was with you on your first point but then don’t understand your second! Are you saying that vaxxed people are more likely to be asymptomatic than unvaxxed? Is there evidence of this? I haven’t heard this before so curious

This is interesting one of the earliest people to catch omicron thinks he picked it up in London at a conference last month.

Makes me wonder if it maybe originated here?

@PurpleDaisies

They think omicron arose in an immunocompromised patient who couldn’t clear covid so it was able to mutate many times within them

They think this is true of the Delta variant, and others, too: the "news" in this news is that the rapid research around Covid seems to be confirming that that's what makes viruses mutate especially strongly.

www.nytimes.com/2021/03/15/health/coronavirus-variants-immunocompromised-patients.html

I'm not sure, it depends on the risk. I've never had flu, or a flu vaccine and I've never been eligible for a free one.

@LemonSwan

I am not sure why some get so upset at others for voicing concerns, or even the actual anti-vax views. And I say this for a few reasons:

1. If you are vaxed then you are protected so what does it matter what others do - and dont talk to me about the NHS collapsing. As far as I am concerned its been collapsed for the last decade.

1. Would I rather be in a room of vaxed people or unvaxxed; probably the latter because then in all likelihood they will be coughing like crazy and I know to run the fuck out of there quick sharp; as opposed to spending an evening conversing with someone asymptomatic.

And lastly I don't know whether this is true but I have been wondering...

1. Is there not a risk of the more this virus spreads against vaccinated people, the more evolutionary pressure its applying on it to mutate away from the protection of the vaccine? Ie. did Omicron mutate in someone with the vaccine or without?

I agree

1. If you are vaxed then you are protected so what does it matter what others do - and dont talk to me about the NHS collapsing.
But this is indeed the reason, whether you want to hear it or not.
I'm afraid of getting ill with something else and not being able to get treatment. I live in Germany, so in my case it's not the NHS. But I'm also afraid of my elderly parents in the UK not getting treatment because people are worried about the vaccine.

"Don't talk to me about [the reason why you are justifiably worried about my choices]" is not a good argument.

Yes, I do. I believe in science even under pandemic emergency stress. I'm so glad my parents vaccinated me against every virus 60 years ago, including chicken pox.

Couple of my friends who were not vaccinated have developed shingles making their lives miserable for a few weeks.

I prefer to listen to medical advice instead of Faceblook or Youtube.

@LemonSwan

I am not sure why some get so upset at others for voicing concerns, or even the actual anti-vax views. And I say this for a few reasons:

1. If you are vaxed then you are protected so what does it matter what others do - and dont talk to me about the NHS collapsing. As far as I am concerned its been collapsed for the last decade.

1. Would I rather be in a room of vaxed people or unvaxxed; probably the latter because then in all likelihood they will be coughing like crazy and I know to run the fuck out of there quick sharp; as opposed to spending an evening conversing with someone asymptomatic.

And lastly I don't know whether this is true but I have been wondering...

1. Is there not a risk of the more this virus spreads against vaccinated people, the more evolutionary pressure its applying on it to mutate away from the protection of the vaccine? Ie. did Omicron mutate in someone with the vaccine or without?

@lemonswan I’m not sure upset is quite the right word, frustrated possibly?

Anyway, point by point:

1. Yes I have a protections afforded from the vaccine against covid, but like @ravenmum points out, that doesn’t protect me from the effects of an overstretched health service and covid is an element we have a degree of short term control over. We have seen/are seeing what covid demands in terms of immediate treatments and the knock on effects of this. But you don’t want to recognise that.

1. Okay - that’s very much personal choice. Crack on.

1. That risk exists in both vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. The advantage of vaccinations is that vaccinated people clear an infection quicker and there is less time for mutations meaning the rate is much slower. Alpha was thought to have originated in a long term immunosuppressed patient receiving antibody treatment and Omicron possibly in a HIV patient. Both environments allow for a long term infection to replicate and mutate into a form that evades treatments/vaccines because the surviving virus will have arisen out of mutations that weren’t affected by treatments or immune systems. In both instances a vaccine may have helped to clear any infection in its initial stages or it may be that, in the second case, a vaccine was also unfortunately evaded because antibody levels were too low. They’re not foolproof but the chances of mutation are heavily diminished with the use of vaccines.

It may be in the future that immunosuppressed covid patients require much more careful monitoring but the scale of doing that with such widespread circulation is a huge undertaking.

Apart from the health issue, @LemonSwan, my main concern is also that I won't survive financially if the pandemic goes on too long. I work partly in the tourism sector and my income has fallen dramatically as a result of lockdowns. I'm really worried my savings won't last if the tourism sector can't open up again soon. As @Cornettoninja says, it's frustrating thinking that this could potentially drag out longer, until I'm unemployed in my 50s, as a result (among other things) of misinformation.

@ravenmum

Apart from the health issue, *@LemonSwan, my main concern is also that I won't survive financially if the pandemic goes on too long. I work partly in the tourism sector and my income has fallen dramatically as a result of lockdowns. I'm really worried my savings won't last if the tourism sector can't open up again soon. As @Cornettoninja* says, it's frustrating thinking that this could potentially drag out longer, until I'm unemployed in my 50s, as a result (among other things) of misinformation.

Are there studies showing the exact number of unvaccinated people with Covid in ICU with no other health issues? I suspect the number is much lower than we are led to believe.

Are there studies showing the exact number of unvaccinated people with Covid in ICU with no other health issues? I suspect the number is much lower than we are led to believe
I guess you didn't mean to quote me, but now I've looked :) - why do you ask?

Ah yes sorry about that.
I meant to quote another poster saying the issue of unvaccinated people filling up ICU is what worries her.

Quite a lot of replies so I wont copy everyone individually.

But on the first NHS point - I know others have a differing opinion but I have never been able to get adequate care on the NHS until something reaches crisis point - and still then I haven't 9/10 and have either had to go private or muddle along untreated. So to me a collapsed NHS is what it has always been. Its just how I feel from my experience.

On the vaccinated more likely to be asymptomatic - yes they are. Persistent Cough is no1 symptom in non vaccinated - replaced by Runny Nose in vaccinated - pushing the cough down to No.5 symptom.
So yes it sounds crazy to prefer to be with unvaccinated people but at least I am more likely to see they are ill!

I do sympathise with the employment/ financial issue @ravenmum ; however its clear with the Omicron panic that being vaccinated does not appear to be stopping COVID completely. I think this will just go on forever and at some point we are going to have to stop with the restrictions. Its clear they cant control it no matter what you do. All we can do is delay the inevitable - which right now is the spread of Omicron.

however its clear with the Omicron panic that being vaccinated does not appear to be stopping COVID completely.

This is exactly the same for delta. . The vaccines are holding for serious disease but plenty of infection in fully vaccinated people.

I know others have a differing opinion but I have never been able to get adequate care on the NHS until something reaches crisis point
This has been my second-hand experience with friends and family in the UK, but to me it just means that if things are that bad in normal times, they will just get worse in the pandemic.

I think this will just go on forever and at some point we are going to have to stop with the restrictions
I'm not quite as pessimistic*, but let's say you're right, and the vaccines don't help. What would make governments decide to stop the restrictions? I'll tell you what might: high numbers being vaccinated and it still not working. Otherwise they can keep up the restrictions and say it's not their fault, it's those unvaccinated people making them do it.

*I think these new treatments for the symptoms could be a game changer, and that if we could get vaxes up by next summer, infections might be brought down further. (Fully admitting that might be hoping in vain.)

It's weird how many people seem to go against vaccination on MN when the facts are saying the opposite.

Over a year ago there were, acknowledged, more than 1,500 deaths per day due to Covid in the UK. The UK had lockdowns with restriction of movement and access to basic health. Most people were working from home and business were not only suffering, there were costing tax payers billions of dollars in debt.

The turn around was thanks to immunisation nationwide protocol that made possible to start functioning again. Apparently for some, this is not enough and freedom of choice is more important than health, jobs, economy and movement.

Vaccines are the only way out of this. Just like vaccines were the only reason why whooping cough, diphtheria, hepatitis B, meningitis, polio etc have almost eradicated childhood mortality rates of 95%.

But hey, keep talking about freedom of choice and human rights.

I will agree with freedom of choice if we were not in a global pandemic and people could individually go to an inhabitant island to live on their own. Unfortunately, freedom of choice in a pandemic means your choice can impact many others with dreadful consequences.

@Shitfuckcommaetc

If the frequency is a vaccine a year. Then fine, boosters every few months? I'm not sure about that. I've felt like death, and had to have time off work after every dose so far

I agree. I have a serious illness and the second vaccine put me into a flare that took a few weeks to recover from. I wouldn't want to be doing that every few months.