Vaccine for 5+

[NotTheBaby]

It’s on sky news now. Leaked document stating 5 year olds and above to be vaccinated from spring. I’m so hesitant to get my children done, when I couldn’t wait for mine. Why is this so much harder than it should be? Or am I just overthinking it?

And again the vaccine won’t stop kids getting Covid.

And again, this is misinformation, the vaccine mix we have now in the adult population and with waning stop more than half of infections.

And that’s with older adults whose immune responses to vaccines are almost always worse than younger people’s and in particular children’s, and with a lot of AZ that hasn’t fared as well against Delta than Pfizer.

@Hotcoffee10

And again the vaccine won’t stop kids getting Covid. It might even mean they develop less robust long term immunity. Most kids have been exposed already in the UK so they will have some immunity.

It might even mean they develop less robust long term immunity.

You keep repeating this but there is no evidence to suggest it is the case.

Vaccination does not prevent your immune system from continually evolving it's breadth and robustness to responding to coronavirus. Each time you encouter the virus, you will be "boosted".

Interesting, the JCVI, who some members seem to be a tad biased in their approach to vaccination, did not list this in their arguments against vaccination.

So MHRA say 3-6 yellow card reports per 1000 doses. Can you provide breakdown of how serious those ADRs are and how that compares to for example the flu vaccine or other childhood vaccines. Because it seems on an order of magnitudes much higher to me.

I suspect it’s on their website or in their FOIs. They do say the overwhelming majority are mild side effects.

You’re very concerned about this, so why don’t you pop in an FOI of your own?

twitter.com/drhoenderkamp/status/1460017334391918594?s=21

www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting maybe you will find this useful

Basically: I want the choice to give this vaccine to my children, under the conditions I described above. As you’ll have noticed, I quite like data and evidence, I will be watching the results in the US and Israel closely.

I think your concerns are massively overblown for the reasons I’ve stayed, but they remain your concerns and they are real to you.

You do you, but I do get annoyed when people want to deny the rest of us choice, particularly when their arguments are padded out with misinformation and based on fundamental misunderstandings of scientific and regulatory processes.

[quote Hotcoffee10]twitter.com/drhoenderkamp/status/1460017334391918594?s=21[/quote]
could you summarise why you linked this?

As an onlooker to this conversation, one who is quite in the middle of feelings about vaccines' pros and cons etc I'd say Hotcoffee10 is presenting a pretty clear argument.

She's been accused of having an agenda. This doesn't seem the case to me. What do you mean by agenda?

The posters arguing against her seem very much on an agenda to support the vaccines at any cost. That to me is an agenda.

Maybe I will put in an FOI. I would have thought anyone advocating for childhood vaccines might have an interest in being sure of the safety of said vaccines.

I’ve linked some papers about immune response upthread I won’t link again. There is certainly no evidence kids will sustain a long term immune response. Why would they when adults don’t?

Why are you so determined that vaccinating kids is the right thing to do? Do you genuinely think it’s in their best interests?
You have not clearly explained why.

You say I seem to be very concerned about safety data on Covid vaccines. I am a parent in a country where the government have just briefed the press on plans to vaccinate age 5 upward so of course I’m very concerned about the safety of those vaccines. What is your interest in dismissing and rubbishing those concerns?

The link is a video of Peter doshi BMJ editor explaining how the vaccines could more properly be considered drugs. It used to be on YouTube but has been taken down. I found it on Twitter. I thought it might be useful.

I’ve linked some papers about immune response upthread I won’t link again. There is certainly no evidence kids will sustain a long term immune response. Why would they when adults don’t?

No one is stating this. It's not an argument against offering vaccination though, the reasons of which I've explained a couple of times @Hotcoffee10

You say I seem to be very concerned about safety data on Covid vaccines. I am a parent in a country where the government have just briefed the press on plans to vaccinate age 5 upward so of course I’m very concerned about the safety of those vaccines. What is your interest in dismissing and rubbishing those concerns?

I’m not, I said you seem particularly concerned about the YC as a source of safety data, and if you wanted the info you were seeking that was probably the way to go.

(Thanks for the link @dementedpixie)

I’m also concerned about safety. I’m more satisfied than you about the current safety profile of these vaccines, including for children. I assume a lot of that is because I am less worried about long term dormant effects - you seem very concerned about this. I am less so, because it’s not really how vaccines work, and I’m more concerned about long term impacts from Covid.

I’m going to step back now, because I don’t like what I’m being accused of and I’ve made it a point not to get drawn into policy debates and I’ve broken my own rule tonight. I’m angry with myself for straying beyond the pure data because people cannot avoid name calling rather than engaging with issues based on facts and argument rather than whataboutery.

I wish you well. I’m glad that you will get your desire to be able to avoid vaccination for your children regardless of what the government decides. I wish others would show me the same respect.

@TotoShetland

As an onlooker to this conversation, one who is quite in the middle of feelings about vaccines' pros and cons etc I'd say Hotcoffee10 is presenting a pretty clear argument.

She's been accused of having an agenda. This doesn't seem the case to me. What do you mean by agenda?

The posters arguing against her seem very much on an agenda to support the vaccines at any cost. That to me is an agenda.

Not sure how you can claim this when my first post on the thread was...

They are considering offering vaccination to this age group. You child may or may not be offered it. You can say no if you don't think it's something you want to take up.

The JCVI did not advise vaccination of 12-15 year olds, the CMOs used further evidence to offer it to this age group, with the caveat that it's not a clear cut decision, and families should decide if they want to go ahead. A similar scenario will likely occur, depending on data available, when they evaluate it for younger kids.

Why debate now when there will be far more evidence come Spring evaluating the benefits/risks.

And as ever, misinformation will help no-one make an informed decision re: vaccination, so it's good to avoid sharing it

She's been accused of having an agenda. This doesn't seem the case to me. What do you mean by agenda?

@TotoShetland

I would argue that cherry picking various sources to try and argue vaccines are not safe, repeatedly claiming vaccines could lead to a worse immune response, deliberately mis-using yellow card data, and linking an article about neonatal deaths in response to RSV and claiming it's about vaccines causing miscarriage/stillbirth on one single thread is trending towards something of a biased approach to vaccination.

Not sure why I’m being accused of name calling I’m typing quickly on my phone so the tone may be curt but I am trying to be civil.
I also have to go to bed. Thanks for the debate. All I can say I hope the medical regulators justify your faith in them.

What are you referring to as misinformation ollyoxenfree? And who are you to judge what misinformation is? There is so much information out there.

You are not a moderator on this board are you, telling people to avoid sharing information?

I have been reading this thread as it goes along and there are three posters: ollyollyoxenfree, JassyRadlett and another, I forget the name of, who band together. You post time and time again. In a bullying fashion it seems to me. Shouting at people and accusing people of misinformation etc. As though you are the authority.

This is an open forum and probably a very influential forum. Many people read it. It must worry the vaccine companies that open discussion can go on here.

@JassyRadlett

You say I seem to be very concerned about safety data on Covid vaccines. I am a parent in a country where the government have just briefed the press on plans to vaccinate age 5 upward so of course I’m very concerned about the safety of those vaccines. What is your interest in dismissing and rubbishing those concerns?

I’m not, I said you seem particularly concerned about the YC as a source of safety data, and if you wanted the info you were seeking that was probably the way to go.

(Thanks for the link @dementedpixie)

I’m also concerned about safety. I’m more satisfied than you about the current safety profile of these vaccines, including for children. I assume a lot of that is because I am less worried about long term dormant effects - you seem very concerned about this. I am less so, because it’s not really how vaccines work, and I’m more concerned about long term impacts from Covid.

I’m going to step back now, because I don’t like what I’m being accused of and I’ve made it a point not to get drawn into policy debates and I’ve broken my own rule tonight. I’m angry with myself for straying beyond the pure data because people cannot avoid name calling rather than engaging with issues based on facts and argument rather than whataboutery.

I wish you well. I’m glad that you will get your desire to be able to avoid vaccination for your children regardless of what the government decides. I wish others would show me the same respect.

The mRNA vaccines are quite different from traditional vaccines though. It's not quite accurate to say "they can't have long term side effects because that's not how vaccines work" because these are so different to other vaccines. I don't think we've ever administered on a mass scale a vaccine which hijacks our cells' genetic machinery before.

Shouting at people and accusing people of misinformation etc. As though you are the authority.

I hope I don’t shout. I try to constrain myself to where clear misinformation has been posted and correct it (usually but not always with sources - as you point out I am not the authority, however sometimes when it’s been several times on a thread or it’s a very common one I dispense with it.) I’m always happy to be challenged on the stats I quote, and I have admitted when I’ve made mistakes or someone has presented more complete or up to date data.

I also try to be even handed and point out misinformation from both sides (such as on some threads today when people were overstating the numbers in ICU or dead, including children.

I allowed myself to get dragged into this thread, which I regret.

As you say, it’s an open and influential forum. Many people read it, which is why I feel particularly passionately that misinformation should not be allowed to stand I corrected - because people might believe it otherwise.

I do believe most but not all is innocent - bad media reporting, misunderstanding second hand information, believing someone with somewhat more malign intent.

I will attempt to do better at being completely factual.

(I will continue to challenge antisemitism and Holocaust minimisation though.)

@TotoShetland

What are you referring to as misinformation ollyoxenfree? And who are you to judge what misinformation is? There is so much information out there.

You are not a moderator on this board are you, telling people to avoid sharing information?

I have been reading this thread as it goes along and there are three posters: ollyollyoxenfree, JassyRadlett and another, I forget the name of, who band together. You post time and time again. In a bullying fashion it seems to me. Shouting at people and accusing people of misinformation etc. As though you are the authority.

This is an open forum and probably a very influential forum. Many people read it. It must worry the vaccine companies that open discussion can go on here.

What are you referring to as misinformation ollyoxenfree? Something which isn't backed up by robust evidence. Such as false claims of vaccines causing miscarriages and stillbirths in Scotland.

You are not a moderator on this board are you, telling people to avoid sharing information?
Nope, and notice I've never told anyone not to share information. Misinformation, on the other hand...

Shouting at people
Please link to any of my posts on this thread where I've "shouted", or referred to anyone in negative way due to their personal decion on vaccination?

Incidentally, @JassyRadlett is probably the politest person on the coronavirus board, she deserves a medal.

This is an open forum and probably a very influential forum
Quite, which is why allowing it to be engulfed by swathes of health misinformation is so problematic. As I say time and time again, no one can make an informed decision when surrounded by a constant barrage of fake claims about vaccines and coronavirus.

3 million US kids including my 9 year old has now been vaccinated without a single incidence of myocarditis I believe. My younger one will be vaccinated as soon as he turns 5.

@ollyollyoxenfree

Again I would question your authority on pointing out what exactly is health misinformation. How could you possible be an authority on that?

Your tone sounds aggressive. I'm sorry if I'm mistaken - but that's how it comes across to me. Telling people that they have an agenda and are engulfing us with swathes of misinformation is fairly aggressive. Maybe it's passive aggressive. That's not much better.

Hotcoffee has given you robust evidence. She has never called you names or accused you or Jassy of anything. In your opinion her evidence is not robust, maybe. But that's just your opinion.

Who are you to say that her claims are false?

No way. They are studying the menstrual irregularities reported. There is no long term fertility data.

No benefit and all of the risk.

3 million US kids including my 9 year old has now been vaccinated without a single incidence of myocarditis

This is health misinformation - but I suspect you won't pick up the poster on this, will you @ollyollyoxenfree? Where's the robust evidence for this?

The part of this I have a hard time with is who would willingly let their child be injected with a trail drug (not just the Covid vaccine) when they have no idea what the outcome would be? I'm not talking about if it's approved I mean in the actual trail stages. I'd have a hard time justifying it to myself if I put my children up to be the test subjects.

From the highly highly respected Eric Topol.