Austria unvaccinated lockdown

[MRex]

How is this expected to actually work in practice? I have only seen basic UK news articles, interested mostly to understand the practical implications.

Personal views without knowing detail: I simply don't see any way this can be achieved without infringing on personal freedoms of unvaccinated and vaccinated quite significantly. I'm very pro-vax in general and for covid, but I hope the UK doesn't start anything like this, seems like it would just have anyone digging their heels in and cause a lot of social unrest issues.

I'm stupid. How's it the boiling frog thing?

You plunge a frog into boiling water, it will leap out. If you put it in cold water and heat it slowly, it will stay until it is boiled to death.

If Austria started rolling the vaccine out, and from day 1 said that only people who have had the jab could have less restrictions, there would be an almighty uproar.

[quote Coldpressed]@Colin56

We were discussing the vaccination status of the majority of patients in hospital. Not rates. Highly relevant when people start talking about a "pandemic of the unvaccinated".[/quote]
Thats classic deflection there.

@colin56

I can only explain this to you once more before I lose my mind, so this will be my last attempt. Try to pay attention.

Eileen stated that most patients hospitalised with covid in Germany were unvaxxed. I said that this was odd to hear because most patients hospitalised in the UK with covid are vaccinated. WE WERE NOT DISCUSSING THE RATE OF HOSPITALISATION AMONGST EITHER GROUP but the proportion of patients in hospital with covid who are vaccinated Vs unvaccinated.

The column you've circled is for the rate within the vaccinated and unvaccinated population.

It was the difference in the proportion of hospitalised patients with covid that were vaccinated and unvaccinated that we were comparing. Eileen stated that in German data, most people hospitalised with covid are unvaccinated. I said that was odd because it's the opposite in England. As it clearly is from that table.

I'm not a moron, I understand that most people are vaccinated and so the raw numbers of each group in hospital don't translate to lack of efficacy against severe disease. But that is not what was being discussed. We were clearly speaking about the proportion of hospitalised covid patients who are vaxxed and unvaxxed in each country.

If you don't understand yet there's no hope.

@XenoBitch

*what ugly terminology, you sound like a daily mail-bot.

im pro vaccine but your rhetoric makes me puke*

I am glad to see this. Get fed up with people bitching about the more vocal anti-vaxxers wearing gold stars etc, but stuff like "refuseniks" goes with no comment at all.

Well, thank you. I used the word in its sense of "a person who refuses or declines something".

I don't quite see why this is causing people's heads to spin around 180 degrees as they vomit, but carry on.

For the record, I am quite surprised at this move by Austria, but rather than put their heads in the sand whilst simultaneously crowing about the reduction in case numbers (brief) as the UK heads into winter along with the rest of the northern hemisphere, it is at least acknowledging there is a problem with large numbers of their population refusing to be vaccinated against a pandemic-causing virus.

Bloody hell, we had a holiday cancelled to Austria at the start of the pandemic, it sounds like we dodged a bullet

Austria only has 2000 odd intensive care beds in total. At the moment around 460+ are being use for covid patients.

For months there have been restrictions based on what ‘Level’ according to how many intensive care beds basically.
I don’t know exactly but for example over 20% for covid patients it moves to level 3, over 30% level 4, over 40% level 4 etc.

It’s now basically moved to the higher level as although it’s around 25% of total intensive care beds, it’s over 40% in certain regions, hence those two regions have now added this extra lockdown for the unvaccinated.

They are trying to bring down how many patients in intensive care, not covid overall, and seeing as majority are the unvaccinated, they have been hit with the restrictions.

No not every likes it, yes some are protesting in various ways, but I guess it’s seen as a hopeful temporary measure until either more choose to be vaccinated or the hospitals work out an alternative to cope. They still need those intensive care beds for all the usual non covid related issues as well.

On a personal basis, I don’t know anyone here still who has knowingly had covid in the last 18+ months. If they have, no symptoms. Many are testing regularly for work and no positives either.

Also re a few other things in Austria

Identity cards - your supposed to be able to show identity if asked, but you don’t actually have to have it on you at all times, it’s within ‘ a few hours’ ie you can go home and get it and show at local police or town hall. It’s not a common occurrence, usually you would only really get asked for it when pulled over for driving offence and you need you driving license on you anyway. It’s manly for police involvement like if they broke up a fight, or there was a accident, you would be asked for identity or to take to show within that day, the next. I have never been asked to randomly show identity.

The green pass has been here several months. You show to access restaurants etc. In other places if it says you can only used if vaccinated such as a clothes shop, you aren’t checked on entry, but if there was a random green pass spot check by police you could now get fined for using a venue if you went in unvaccinated knowing the regulations.
Maybe it’s higher checks in the cities, but I have never had or seen any of these ‘police checks’ happen where I live yet.

The ski resorts are still planned to open. But where as last year you could be ‘3G’ tested, vaccinated or recovered, this year it’s 2g only which is tested only without being vaccinated or recovered won’t be valid.

Many people vaccinated or recovered are still having to be tested regularly for work, it’s not just if vaccinated you don’t test.

@XenoBitch I got vaccinated for the greater good. I am lucky enough to be in a position to have it so I see it as my civic duty to take it.

@Colin56

Have you looked at the deaths on those tables, extremely worrying isn’t it that the vast majority of those who have died have had the injections.

[quote Sugarandtime]@Colin56

Have you looked at the deaths on those tables, extremely worrying isn’t it that the vast majority of those who have died have had the injections.[/quote]
www.scienceupfirst.com/project/the-base-rate-fallacy-affects-how-we-understand-covid-19/

If you scroll down, there's an explanation of Base Rate Fallacy with regard to Covid infections among the vaccinated, and you'll see why it's not extremely worrying, but extremely normal. And doesn't prove, as many anti-vaxxers would like it to, that the vaccine doesn't work.

@XenoBitch

I'm stupid. How's it the boiling frog thing?

You plunge a frog into boiling water, it will leap out. If you put it in cold water and heat it slowly, it will stay until it is boiled to death.

If Austria started rolling the vaccine out, and from day 1 said that only people who have had the jab could have less restrictions, there would be an almighty uproar.

Yes I know the boiling frog analogy, I just needed the relevance to this spelt out. Thanks.

Would there have been an uproar. Austrians seem to be used to being treated like Victorian children anyway. Isn't it just another rule? So, if you like, they've been in the pot for so long, it's already nearly boiling.

[quote Coldpressed]@colin56

I can only explain this to you once more before I lose my mind, so this will be my last attempt. Try to pay attention.

Eileen stated that most patients hospitalised with covid in Germany were unvaxxed. I said that this was odd to hear because most patients hospitalised in the UK with covid are vaccinated. WE WERE NOT DISCUSSING THE RATE OF HOSPITALISATION AMONGST EITHER GROUP but the proportion of patients in hospital with covid who are vaccinated Vs unvaccinated.

The column you've circled is for the rate within the vaccinated and unvaccinated population.

It was the difference in the proportion of hospitalised patients with covid that were vaccinated and unvaccinated that we were comparing. Eileen stated that in German data, most people hospitalised with covid are unvaccinated. I said that was odd because it's the opposite in England. As it clearly is from that table.

I'm not a moron, I understand that most people are vaccinated and so the raw numbers of each group in hospital don't translate to lack of efficacy against severe disease. But that is not what was being discussed. We were clearly speaking about the proportion of hospitalised covid patients who are vaxxed and unvaxxed in each country.

If you don't understand yet there's no hope.[/quote]
Not in all age groups though. It's definitely the case in the over 50s, but under 50, unvaxxed or partially vaxxed outnumber the vaccinated. This might reflect the waning efficacy of the vaccine in those age groups in the UK due to when they were vaccinated. This might not be the same in Germany depending on their initial roll out.

Also the UK cases have been high for weeks. Our school infections have already started to spread upwards in to the parents generations and grandparents generations. As far as I'm aware, Germany's cases have been low and they are spiking suddenly, largely among larger age groups. If the infection level in the 50+ age groups in Germany is less than in the UK that could explain why the vax status among hospitalisations as a whole are the opposite to ours.

Pinched from a van life group. Fuel station in Slovenia.

Can I ask what is happening with children in Austria? My DC are supposed to be going on a school trip mid December. All the teachers going have to be fully vaccinated but the children under 12 don’t. Is this new lockdown likely to stop school trips going?

It's sounds shocking but it's not that different from what's already happening in some parts of the UK imo. The language is perhapse more inflamatory - "lockdown of unvaccinated" vs "covid pass for vaccinated" as it's called here. However you describe it, the results are the same and it's soon going to be difficult to access leisure and hospitality if you're not vaccinated.

The thing is, there is this general idea that “unvaccinated people” are a group that never wanted one, was opposed to having one and therefore have never had any COVID jab. But actually if the vaccine passport is legislated in a country, then all unvaccinated people will be automatically locked out of society such as pubs, shops, hairdressers, work etc. You may think that’s ok because they have not followed the rules. But think again. The vaccine passport will be enforced forever. Which means if YOU decide you can’t face your 12th booster, or if getting your booster was delayed or the computer system was faulty and your health data was incorrect then YOU will also be classed as unvaccinated and hey presto you will also be locked out of society. Just like that.

Another scenario. What if a family member was unvaccinated (for any of the above reasons) or simply has a good immune system and doesn’t want a vaccine, then what will you do? Leave them at the door of the pub or wedding and wave goodbye, see you later, sorry you can’t join us?

This is such massive infringement on basic rights and freedoms. And it could happen to you or your family, not just those who don’t want the 3 shots (so far).

The vaccine passport will be enforced forever.

I think that's very unlikely.

Well the flu shots have never gone away, have they? The strains keep changing every year. What’s so different about covid? Well, if not forever, certainly not just for the short term.

The vaccination take up rate in Austria is pretty low. Hopefully this measure might persuade more to take the vaccine.

That’s not persuasion, that’s bullying and coercion.. It means that if you know your own body and that the vaccine isn’t for you (but you can’t get the doctor to agree) then you are backed into a corner. Enforced.

@elliehamster

That’s not persuasion, that’s bullying and coercion.. It means that if you know your own body and that the vaccine isn’t for you (but you can’t get the doctor to agree) then you are backed into a corner. Enforced.

Not at all. Its a sane society responding to a pandemic that could go on for years. If it was Ebola with a CFR of 8% you would be screaming for a vaccine. To have the opportunity to have a vaccine and healthcare is a luxury, if people dont want that then they can deal with the consequences.

@elliehamster

The thing is, there is this general idea that “unvaccinated people” are a group that never wanted one, was opposed to having one and therefore have never had any COVID jab. But actually if the vaccine passport is legislated in a country, then all unvaccinated people will be automatically locked out of society such as pubs, shops, hairdressers, work etc. You may think that’s ok because they have not followed the rules. But think again. The vaccine passport will be enforced forever. Which means if YOU decide you can’t face your 12th booster, or if getting your booster was delayed or the computer system was faulty and your health data was incorrect then YOU will also be classed as unvaccinated and hey presto you will also be locked out of society. Just like that.

Another scenario. What if a family member was unvaccinated (for any of the above reasons) or simply has a good immune system and doesn’t want a vaccine, then what will you do? Leave them at the door of the pub or wedding and wave goodbye, see you later, sorry you can’t join us?

This is such massive infringement on basic rights and freedoms. And it could happen to you or your family, not just those who don’t want the 3 shots (so far).

This above sounds reflexively contrarian without any facts guiding your thoughts.

@elliehamster

The thing is, there is this general idea that “unvaccinated people” are a group that never wanted one, was opposed to having one and therefore have never had any COVID jab. But actually if the vaccine passport is legislated in a country, then all unvaccinated people will be automatically locked out of society such as pubs, shops, hairdressers, work etc. You may think that’s ok because they have not followed the rules. But think again. The vaccine passport will be enforced forever. Which means if YOU decide you can’t face your 12th booster, or if getting your booster was delayed or the computer system was faulty and your health data was incorrect then YOU will also be classed as unvaccinated and hey presto you will also be locked out of society. Just like that.

Another scenario. What if a family member was unvaccinated (for any of the above reasons) or simply has a good immune system and doesn’t want a vaccine, then what will you do? Leave them at the door of the pub or wedding and wave goodbye, see you later, sorry you can’t join us?

This is such massive infringement on basic rights and freedoms. And it could happen to you or your family, not just those who don’t want the 3 shots (so far).

You already have the freedom to decide to not have the vaccine (in most places) but to show you don't have Covid either by taking a test. Kind of like the ones British school kids took for months on end. The same negative tests that allowed kids to enter classrooms allow non-vaccinated Italians (for example) to enter pubs and museums.

There's also the Covid recovery certificate which also generates a Covid pass. Lasts for 180 days.

You have a choice. Almost everywhere except the (very few) places which have decided the people need their choice removing for the time being for the greater good.

Why was nobody taking to the streets when "coerced" onto LFTs 3x a week? And you actually were coerced into that.

@elliehamster

That’s not persuasion, that’s bullying and coercion.. It means that if you know your own body and that the vaccine isn’t for you (but you can’t get the doctor to agree) then you are backed into a corner. Enforced.

Where has that happened? Answer: in your head.