Incoming............coercion of the over 65s.

[MercyBooth]

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/covid-pass-booster-jab-sajid-javid-b1954946.html

@Lostinacloud

No one is forced to be vaccinated but why should you lose out if you’re not? It still absolutely flattens me to the ground when I read this attitude on here. What if you needed a pass to go in a restaurant and you couldn’t have one because of your religion? You’re not forced to give up your religion but if you keep it then you lose out. I don’t care I’m in the right religion and have showed my pass to get inside and look at you being turned away. Your choice of religion doesn’t really affect me, I am protected by my religion and beliefs.

You see how ludicrous this idea is? Just because the discrimination is not affecting you, doesn’t mean you should turn a blind eye and not consider the implications of going along with it and being on the apparent “right” side.

And before anyone tells me that religions aren’t infectious viruses that could give you covid, neither is an unvaccinated person that either isn’t infected and is totally well and healthy and capable of making that assessment themselves or have already had covid and so effectively earned their antibody “vaccination” naturally. For the 1000th time, vaccination does not stop spread, you could be sitting inside your restaurant surrounded by covid positive people but it’s ok because their phone turned green when it got scanned at the door!

I’ve never heard such nonsense. Why months later is there such a lack of understanding about the reasoning for a vaccine pass and how vaccinations function is beyond me.

@SpringKit that all sounds perfectly normal, conscientious and reasonable. However, what about everyone who’s know had covid and didn’t need hospital? They know they can survive it and not take up a hospital space so why do they need a booster?
But allow vaccine passports and there won’t be any choice. THAT’s the problem.

@Helicopterlife I would gladly love to hear your explanation for why vaccine passports are needed and will be effective. I’ve just seen anyone explain it, only say that they are double vaxxed so what’s the problem, they don’t need to care.

@Lostinacloud - I think in ‘normal times’ - yes. Totally agree. But the world has been upended, and I really do think it’s to control the spread and save lives. If it was one country doing all this in isolation, I’d think it was dodgy. But it’s all countries! I’ve just got to the stage where I’m getting on with it.

@Lostinacloud I don’t have the brain capacity to figure out what’s for the best, I’m just a lay person. I have faith (blind faith?) that there are people out there, medical experts, behavioural scientists who know far better than I do.

@Lostinacloud if they try it when i cant even access a second vaccine i will be lawyering up. Plenty of them are on Twitter already sharpening their pencils.

[quote Lostinacloud]@Helicopterlife I would gladly love to hear your explanation for why vaccine passports are needed and will be effective. I’ve just seen anyone explain it, only say that they are double vaxxed so what’s the problem, they don’t need to care.[/quote]
Hi @Lostinacloud let’s consider two hypothetical groups who go out.

One group of 4 people are vaccinated. Unfortunately all 4 catch covid in the bar. As they are vaccinated none need to be hospitalised. They deal with their symptoms at home. As they are vaccinated they are 50% less likely to pass on covid to others. They pass it to 2 people.

One group of 4 people are unvaccinated. Unfortunately all 4 catch covid in the bar. 2 have mild symptoms, 1 has more severe symptoms and requires a hospital visit to get checked out, 1 is seriously affected and ends up in ICU. They are far more likely to pass it on as unvaccinated - they pass it to 4 people.

The impact of the people who are vaccinated on the health system is negligible. The impact of the unvaccinated puts strain on an already stretched system and also spreads covid more to others.

We all know you are much more likely to catch covid in a crowded or indoor place. The unvaccinated people clearly don’t care about this and their potential impact on others or the health system. Luckily a covid pass is in place - they can’t go in and now the scenario above doesn’t happen. Happy days!

To clarify..............it should not be happening to anyone.......regardless

Who will you be lawyering up against @MercyBooth? Every country in Europe?

[quote MercyBooth]@Lostinacloud if they try it when i cant even access a second vaccine i will be lawyering up. Plenty of them are on Twitter already sharpening their pencils.[/quote]
Won’t that be expensive?

What do you suggest i do if im barred from somewhere through no fault of my own?

@SpringKit Ah your privilege is showing. I havent been out of the UK since 1986

@Sian73

My dad couldn’t wait to have his booster. Came down with Covid three weeks after.

I wonder whether he’ll bother again ...

It was never designed to stop him getting it. It was designed to make sure he’s still here to “Not bother” next time.

@MercyBooth I wasn’t referring to travel. I meant that you’d need to lawyer up against a decision that’s been made across Europe.

But you would be effectively preventing me from entering somewhere because i cant access a vaccine.

@Helicopterlife there is some weight to your hypothetical situations and I thank you for explaining vaccine passports from your point of view because until now I just couldn’t understand how anybody could think they were a good idea or effective. Now I can at least understand where this viewpoint is coming from.

The above said, I’m afraid I still can’t get on board with them and for 4 reasons.

1. No matter what is going on in the world I just cannot justify condoning blatant discrimination based upon medical choice. Especially when I feel most adults are capable of exercising caution when they have covid symptoms and so vaccinated or not will generally not go into crowded places, even more so if they are actually feeling unwell and so not really feeling like being in a bar or restaurant - I know I only felt like being at home when I had covid.

1. Your scenario is pretty heavily weighted against the unvaccinated group. Why do none of the vaccinated group end up in hospital? Stats show that in the age groups over 40, vaccinated admissions are on par with or outweigh unvaccinated.

1. Countries that have heavily vaccinated populations and covid passports like Israel and Germany and Ireland are, or recently have, experienced almost record cases. If other countries who are ahead of the uk could demonstrate that vaccine passports did anything to control spread then the argument for them would be more convincing but the fact is not a single one can.

Finally what about the naturally immune? Many unvaccinated may have chosen not to be vaccinated because they have already have covid, survived it and didn’t need any hospital care. I don’t see why they are more likely to spread covid in a bar just because their immunity came from natural infection and not via a vaccine. Indeed I was one of them. I caught covid last October, felt ill for a few days then back to normal by day 7 and never caught it again and still haven’t despite many times of exposure.

@SpringKit just as a point of interest, Spain tried to implement vaccine passports but they were ruled unconstitutional and so it remains one of the few European countries who haven’t implemented something of that nature. The Netherlands are trying to implement one, causing large demonstrations and the french have been protesting every Saturday for 14 solid weeks.

It was supposed to end in France on 15th November but just as they were reaching that date they extended its use until July 22. It applies to all over 12’s and includes teen’s access to sports clubs and activities. Covid is of no risk to them and the vaccine doesn’t stop spread but teens must take the risk of vaccine side effects so they can still go to their local football club - still sound like such a rosy idea?

@MercyBooth are you ok? I mean that genuinely. Is being on MN actually helping you right now? If it is fine and apologies for asking.

I think we all need to remember that this has been a difficult 18 months for a lot of people and try to be kinder to one another.

I’m triple jabbed but can understand why some
People would be concerned about the idea of vaccine passports. I can also understand why some people would want them.

@MercyBooth

But you would be effectively preventing me from entering somewhere because i cant access a vaccine.

I understand your frustration, it sounds very difficult

If you call 119 what do they say about Moderna then booster? I may have missed this if you’ve already said

@Lostinacloud

1. If most adults were capable of staying home and isolating when they have covid symptoms why do we still see a massive spread?

1. Numbers don’t matter proportions do. To take the example of Ireland where are I am, slightly less than half of all those in ICU are vaccinated and there are around 500 in ICU. I can’t remember the exact figures from the article I read but basically 95% of Irish people are fully vaccinated. We have a population of circa 5 mil so that means that 4.75 million people are vaccinated and 250,000 are not. Even if it was 50% of those in hospital vaccinated and 50% not this means your chance of being hospitalised while fully vaccinated based on this number is 0.005% whereas your chances of being hospitalised if unvaccinated is 1%. So it’s statically far far more likely you will be hospitalised as unvaccinated.

1. Even though vaccinations are high those countries actually have large swathes unvaccinated as a share of their population. With restrictions relaxed it’s not surprising cases are rocketing. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if unvaccinated were mixing indoors in scenarios where covid is known to spread easily.

Research shows that antibodies from infection tend to last aroind 6 months. In Ireland you can use proof of infection as a covid pass, however once your six months are up you would need a vaccine. Again you don’t have to get the vaccine but in my opinion you don’t have the right to go indoors and give it to myself and others - even if we are vaccinated or those who can’t get vaccinated (whole concept of herd immunity). Your rights don’t supersede others.

[quote Timescale]**@MercyBooth are you ok? I mean that genuinely. Is being on MN actually helping you right now? If it is fine and apologies for asking.

I think we all need to remember that this has been a difficult 18 months for a lot of people and try to be kinder to one another.

I’m triple jabbed but can understand why some
People would be concerned about the idea of vaccine passports. I can also understand why some people would want them.[/quote]
I quote you here, well said

@MercyBooth in Italy the pass is obtained either with the vaccine or a negative test. The test is not free but it’s not as expensive that one of my relative on a very very basic part time salary can’t afford it. She’s been taking tests (and risks, IMO) for the last few months. But she faces the public with her work and I think that’s acceptable- she thinks it’s acceptable. If she was in health service, I think she’d need the vaccine or a valid reason for the exemption. But vaccines in Italy were required for plenty of other jobs, and they’re mandatory to go to school. Is there a full consensus? No. Are there protests? Yes. Does it help to protest? No, it fills up hospitals

Could you have the Pfizer vaccine as it is a similar vaccine to the moderna one, in that they are both mRNA vaccines @MercyBooth ?

[quote Helicopterlife]@Lostinacloud

1. If most adults were capable of staying home and isolating when they have covid symptoms why do we still see a massive spread?

1. Numbers don’t matter proportions do. To take the example of Ireland where are I am, slightly less than half of all those in ICU are vaccinated and there are around 500 in ICU. I can’t remember the exact figures from the article I read but basically 95% of Irish people are fully vaccinated. We have a population of circa 5 mil so that means that 4.75 million people are vaccinated and 250,000 are not. Even if it was 50% of those in hospital vaccinated and 50% not this means your chance of being hospitalised while fully vaccinated based on this number is 0.005% whereas your chances of being hospitalised if unvaccinated is 1%. So it’s statically far far more likely you will be hospitalised as unvaccinated.

1. Even though vaccinations are high those countries actually have large swathes unvaccinated as a share of their population. With restrictions relaxed it’s not surprising cases are rocketing. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if unvaccinated were mixing indoors in scenarios where covid is known to spread easily.

Research shows that antibodies from infection tend to last aroind 6 months. In Ireland you can use proof of infection as a covid pass, however once your six months are up you would need a vaccine. Again you don’t have to get the vaccine but in my opinion you don’t have the right to go indoors and give it to myself and others - even if we are vaccinated or those who can’t get vaccinated (whole concept of herd immunity). Your rights don’t supersede others.[/quote]
well said

I am getting so sick of the repeated misinformation re:

• vaccinations not stopping spread - no-one ever said they did but they do reduce it
• ignoring rates of infection, serious illness and death. Rates and proportions

I really dont have anything against people who choose / cant be vaccinated. But continued misinformation really annoys me

My two thoughts on vaccine passports FWIW are that I am in favour if there is a free and effective alternative (eg effective twice weekly testing) Also I would genuinely like to know the proportions of unvaccinated that are split between physical / mental health reason why not, those that just refuse and those who just havent got round to it. Vaccine passports would probably make the latter get on with it (benefitting everyone) and if there is an alternative available for the first two groups then I dont see the issue

(I mean- it’s acceptable to pay 45€ a week in tests)

@sleepwouldbenice so how do you explain these 2 inconvenient truths?

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-irelands-co-waterford-has-one-of-the-highest-vaccination-rates-in-the-world-so-why-are-cases-surging-12461642

Even if the rates in Ireland can be explained by behavioural change as muted in the news article, so what? When you have vaccine passports like in Ireland, surely eating out and socialising in a bar when vaccinated is fine?