Vaccines to be compulsory for front line medical staff

[bumbleymummy]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59215282

The covid vaccine, but not the flu vaccine. Although, I suppose the door has been opened for that one now too. They’re being given until spring. I wonder if there will be a massive walk out before winter. If you thought you were going to lose your job come spring, why would you work your ass off all winter? This could majorly backfire.

@MareofBeasttown

Yes, we won't agree on anything vax related, *@bumbleymummy*. Let's leave it at that.:)

What I have learnt from MN is that if you repeat "The vaccines do not stop all transmission" many times, you can obscure the fact that they stop most transmission and then slowly segue to "The vaccines do not stop transmission" by some posters upthread. Perfect solutions do not exist in this world.

So you don’t believe that the vaccines have reduced the recipient’s risk of serious illness and death? Particularly vulnerable groups? I do. Fair enough if you don’t agree though

@Lostinacloud

You believe what you want to believe *@Dishhh*. I haven’t really seen much fact out of you on this thread, just the standard response to anyone unhappy with this awful oppressive situation - I.e. “oh you must be making everything up and you’re clearly an anti-vaxxer” comments. You don’t really give any facts yourself, just try to make out other posters are providing disinformation and must be making stuff up. Adverse vaccine reporting is available in most countries and is FACT.

VAERS (and the UK equivalent, ZOE) is not necessarily fact - it is a self-reporting system and open to abuse.

I've spent the best part of two months visiting a loved one in hospital. Each day I saw examples of chronic underfunding and too few staff. From speaking to the staff, the staffing levels were nothing to do with sickness, and everything to do with insufficient numbers in the first place.

Mandatory vaccination is nothing to do with patient care. It's just another example of the government pretending to do something constructive, and then deflecting blame when it inevitably does not work.

@bumbleymummy
Ok, how does the vaccine protect the health of your patients when you can still contract/transmit the virus when vaccinated but because you’re vaccinated, you don’t have to take regular tests? How is that better/safer than an unvaccinated person who is tested regularly?

I work in a rural GP surgery. We’re all fully vaccinated and in the process of having boosters. We’re still expected to test twice a week.

@Dishhh You point out that self-reporting systems are open to abuse. This is of course true. However long covid symptoms are almost entirely self-reported (by definition).

Fear of long covid is often given as a justification for vaccinating the young, who are at little risk of dying of covid. How do we control for this and stop exaggeration or mistake from exaggerating the threat?

Many, many people have had covid and recovered at home. Including nhs staff. Why should they be forced to have a vaccine? They know the risk of the vaccine is higher than covid for them because they’ve recovered from covid and most likely have antibodies or T cells. Some don’t, but many do. They should be allowed to decide for themselves.
Even the vaccinated are getting covid. They will have stronger immunity, hopefully but this isn’t being differentiated and included in all the ‘effectiveness of the vaccine’ arguments.
I’m not arguing against the vaccine because it can give protection against serious illness and should be encouraged, but there’s still an argument for personal choice.

I don't think the government should be able to mandate what anyone puts in their body. I'm all for vaccines and am double jabbed and will be getting my booster when I can but, that was my choice and we should always have choice over what happens to our bodies even if others don't agree with that choice.

@DayKay in some countries people who have had the virus only need one vaccine. Here, we are mandating two. We really don’t seem to be ‘following the science’ on this at all.

[quote bumbleymummy]@DayKay in some countries people who have had the virus only need one vaccine. Here, we are mandating two. We really don’t seem to be ‘following the science’ on this at all.[/quote]
This is what I find confusing. It’s like we’ve forgotten basic science. How do vaccines work? Isn’t it to make your body think you’re getting the virus so you develop the antibodies for it? So, what if you’ve already had the virus and recovered....?

You’re preaching to the choir!

@bumbleymummy true. I am in France and had covid last October. I was actually fairly satisfied with my own natural immunity and wouldn’t have chosen to be vaccinated at all if I had the choice but sadly I didn’t because I was treated as a social outcast if I wasn’t. However, I only had to have one vaccine to be considered fully vaccinated. That doesn’t work for travel to all countries including the uk but it’s as far as I’m prepared to go.

Like I saw on Twitter the other day, choosing not to be vaccinated as a person not at risk of becoming seriously ill or dying from covid means that you avoid 100% risk of experiencing vaccine side effects and a 99.7% risk of dying from covid. The choice is easy, if only everyone were free to make their own choice!

Perhaps the government shouldn't be able to force people to do things, but you could argue that individual employers should.

They can already dictate what clothes you wear, how you have your hair, whether you're allowed to wear jewellery, what you can bring in for your lunch, and they can force you to test on site. (Not just for Covid-drugs too.). It's not forced, per se. But you have to comply with those policies if you want to enter the premises to work.

And one infected person in a factory could take out an entire production line for days at a time.

I won't be surprised if many employers outside the NHS and social care implement mandatory vaccine policies.

[quote CurlyGirlsMum]@Dishhh You point out that self-reporting systems are open to abuse. This is of course true. However long covid symptoms are almost entirely self-reported (by definition).

Fear of long covid is often given as a justification for vaccinating the young, who are at little risk of dying of covid. How do we control for this and stop exaggeration or mistake from exaggerating the threat?[/quote]

We are talking about vaccine side-effect self-reporting systems? Not side-effects from the disease itself.

Why is self reporting for one considered reliable and something we should take seriously but not the other @Dishhh?

I have been vaccinated (and had Covid). My choice

I do not support my colleagues being forced to be vaccinated under threat of losing their jobs at this point. I think it's something like 93% of staff are vaccinated anyway. Why take such a draconian measure to force a small minority many of whom will likely have had Covid anyway.

The main purpose of the vaccine is to reduce serious illness and death in the person vaccinated. It does reduce transmission too but not 100% and if the people you are caring for have been vaccinated themselves, PPE still being worn and LFTs twice a week then the small additional benefit of being vaccinated on transmission is not worth the assault on bodily autonomy of health and social care workers who have already been through one hell of a lot.

I know for an absolute fact that some of my colleagues will leave the health service rather than be vaccinated as they feel that strongly. This will be a much greater harm
IMHO than some people being unvaccinated. We are already struggling to staff wards due to Brexit (yes I said it), burnout and people just wanting to change career or leave the UK after the year we've all had. This will be the final nail in the coffin for many staff.

This is a crazy policy that will do more harm than good.

@bumbleymummy

Why is self reporting for one considered reliable and something we should take seriously but not the other *@Dishhh*?

You misunderstood me. The conversation was about vaccine self-reporting systems like VAERS and ZOE. These encompass all vaccines, not just COVID. For side-effects from Covid itself, I don't know of any central reporting system. Is there one in the UK? I certainly think there should be one.

@CorrBlimeyGG

I've spent the best part of two months visiting a loved one in hospital. Each day I saw examples of chronic underfunding and too few staff. From speaking to the staff, the staffing levels were nothing to do with sickness, and everything to do with insufficient numbers in the first place.

Mandatory vaccination is nothing to do with patient care. It's just another example of the government pretending to do something constructive, and then deflecting blame when it inevitably does not work.

This in spades, and the same for social care. What's by far effective for patient and resident safety is enough staff to provide the care that needs to be delivered. Both have been chronically understaffed for years, and to address that we have mandatory vaccination and some TV adverts about working in social care. Neither of which are going to train and retain staff. And having a covid vaccination isn't going to suddenly make a HCP or care worker amazing if they're crap to start with, I know that because I work with a couple of people who are fully vaccinated and I wouldn't trust to look after a plant.

The main purpose of the vaccine is to reduce serious illness and death in the person vaccinated. It does reduce transmission too but not 100% and if the people you are caring for have been vaccinated themselves, PPE still being worn and LFTs twice a week then the small additional benefit of being vaccinated on transmission is not worth the assault on bodily autonomy of health and social care workers who have already been through one hell of a lot.

Very well put.

@Dishhh long covid is self reported through Zoe and some studies were based on that data. If you think that self reporting side effects from the vaccine is not reliable then why is self reporting long covid symptoms reliable?

@bumbleymummy

@Dishhh long covid is self reported through Zoe and some studies were based on that data. If you think that self reporting side effects from the vaccine is not reliable then why is self reporting long covid symptoms reliable?

I live elsewhere so I'm not familiar with that. If it's self-reported, then no, I'd agree, it isn't reliable. This is why I asked about reporting system for Covid side-effects - I'm not aware of any. My country certainly doesn't have one, self-reported or otherwise.

Nah. Didn't happen. If it did, change GPs

Oh ok Dishhh
It didn’t happen.
And to the poster from Victoria who said GP’s will be mandated, you are wrong. NSW GP’s do not require vaccination. Kerry Chant said under oath in NSW Supreme Court last week while on the stand as a witness.

This isn't about protecting lives, it's about coercing and punishing those that don't comply - fucking scary that people can't see it! If it's purely a saving lives deal, why April? Why not sack everyone in the next week who can't prove they've had their first jab? Why are these people allowed to work their arses off over the winter?

They threatened youngsters social life to coerce them getting the jab (despite their risk being negligible), that was bad enough, but to threaten peoples livelihoods is just so wrong I honestly can't believe this is even where we are - and on Mumsnet This place can be batshit at times but bodily autonomy is normally sacrosanct on here - seemingly you just have to spend 18 months scaring the shit out of people to get them to comply to almost anything.

I agree with the vaccine, I've HAD the vaccine - but hate the way this is going, it's scary.

Why are we not demanding to see MPs vaccine statuses? Surely it's no big deal to them, in fact if it increases confidence then they'd want to show they're fully vaccinated. I remember in the 90s a drama over whether Tony Blair had had his baby vaccinated - so it's not without precedent, why wouldn't they do this (apparently) small thing? Sajid Javed was saying yesterday that colleagues of the unvaccinated have the right to feel safe at work - so, what about those that sit on the opposing seats in Westminster? Do they have the right to feel safe from the maskless idiots sat opposite them?

Unbelievable. Johnson couldn't even bring himself to wear a mask IN A FUCKING HOSPITAL just this week; seriously stop supporting this bullshit!

but to threaten peoples livelihoods is just so wrong

The primary function of a care home or hospital job role is NOT to provide someone with a likelihood no matter how unsuitable that person might be. The job roles are there to provide safe care to the vulnerable - who have the right to feel safe when they are at their most vulnerable.

Someone who is unwilling to take precautions to help increase safe care of the vulnerable has no business being in that job.

Care homes and hospitals have a duty of care.

I'm with you on the poor show from Westminster however.

As the WHO says, governments need to lead by example including with the simple and easy mitigation that is mask wearing.

Boris maskless in hospital was a national embarrassment.

Remember however that if Boris or other senior MPs get ill with Covid, I'm sure despite very limited supplies they'll have access to the new antivirals and/or monoclonal antibody treatments. That's not guaranteed for the majority of the public.

What is it with Johnson and masks? The hospital episode, coming so soon after his disgraceful display at COP26, the tonedeafness of it is breathtaking!