Vaccines to be compulsory for front line medical staff

[bumbleymummy]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59215282

The covid vaccine, but not the flu vaccine. Although, I suppose the door has been opened for that one now too. They’re being given until spring. I wonder if there will be a massive walk out before winter. If you thought you were going to lose your job come spring, why would you work your ass off all winter? This could majorly backfire.

@bumbleymummy

To suggest that vaccinations are pointless because they don't stop all transmission is ridiculous.

No one is suggesting this.

You said if vaccinated people can still contract transmit the virus, it makes little sense to mandate it for hcps.

So yes, you are suggesting there's no point.

I haven’t forgotten that part at all. An unvaccinated but previously infected person is also less likely to become infected. The point is, if someone is infected, they are just as much risk to their patient regardless of their vaccine status. Regular testing would make more sense.

@DavidDevantsSpiritWife the mandate makes little sense, not the vaccine in general. The vaccine makes perfect sense if you are trying to reduce your own personal risk of serious illness/death.

@bumbleymummy

I haven’t forgotten that part at all. An unvaccinated but previously infected person is also less likely to become infected. The point is, if someone is infected, they are just as much risk to their patient regardless of their vaccine status. Regular testing would make more sense.

I’ll let you catch up to what @PAFMO posted.

You’re also assuming that everyone who hasn’t been vaccinated has already had the virus for the latest argument. It doesn’t matter if someone gets it for the first time and passes it on? Seriously?!

This thread has two elements. The morality of vaccine mandates for NHS staff (which is a matter of personal opinion) and the effectives of vaccines in reducing transmission.

The only people who should be commenting on the effectiveness of vaccines are doctors. By doctors I mean people who have are actually trained medical doctors, not someone who thinks they are an expert because they use facebook.

@PAFMO. It depends on how long ago you’ve been infected

www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-drops-after-6-months-study-2021-10-04/

“ The effectiveness of the Pfizer Inc (PFE.N)/BioNTech SE vaccine in preventing infection by the coronavirus dropped to 47% from 88% six months after the second dose”

You can't pass it on if you haven't got it

Yep. That applies to unvaccinated people too.

I don't believe for a second this will go ahead, however I think the government may find kicking the can down the road bites them on the arse. How many people will leave before the inevitable u-turn?

If it wasn't going to be so catastrophic for the health service I'd take complete satisfaction watching this government (and those that support them) realise, over the next few months, what a huge self-harming fuck up this mandate is.

@bumbleymummy

I haven’t forgotten that part at all. An unvaccinated but previously infected person is also less likely to become infected. The point is, if someone is infected, they are just as much risk to their patient regardless of their vaccine status. Regular testing would make more sense.

" The point is, if someone is infected, they are just as much risk to their patient regardless of their vaccine status."

*""People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.

“They absolutely do reduce transmission,” says Christopher Byron Brooke at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “Vaccinated people do transmit the virus in some cases, but the data are super crystal-clear that the risk of transmission for a vaccinated individual is much, much lower than for an unvaccinated individual.”

A recent study found that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant are 63 per cent less likely to infect people who are unvaccinated.*

[quote bumbleymummy]@PAFMO. It depends on how long ago you’ve been infected

www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-drops-after-6-months-study-2021-10-04/

“ The effectiveness of the Pfizer Inc (PFE.N)/BioNTech SE vaccine in preventing infection by the coronavirus dropped to 47% from 88% six months after the second dose”

You can't pass it on if you haven't got it

Yep. That applies to unvaccinated people too.[/quote]
That's why we're all getting boosters thankfully.

I think @PAFMO's data on the effectiveness of the vaccine on reducing transmission speaks for itself really. I don't have much more to say. I think it is effective enough to be required for HCPs. Others don't.

You’re also assuming that everyone who hasn’t been vaccinated has already had the virus for the latest argument. It doesn’t matter if someone gets it for the first time and passes it on? Seriously?!

No, not assuming anything. Just pointing it out though. What do you think the chances of unvaccinated hcp not having had the virus at this stage is?

Catch up? Why do you want to believe that the findings in Pacmo’s study are more valid than the one I linked to?

@PAFMO see previous link to BMJ and here’s another:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20211001/Similar-viral-load-in-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-individuals-infected-with-SARS-CoV-2-Delta-variant.aspx

“ The authors of this study did not find any statistically significant difference in mean Ct-values between vaccinated and unvaccinated samples.”

@MareofBeasttown

I think *@PAFMO*'s data on the effectiveness of the vaccine on reducing transmission speaks for itself really. I don't have much more to say. I think it is effective enough to be required for HCPs. Others don't.

And the other studies that have found otherwise?

@bumbleymummy

You’re also assuming that everyone who hasn’t been vaccinated has already had the virus for the latest argument. It doesn’t matter if someone gets it for the first time and passes it on? Seriously?!

No, not assuming anything. Just pointing it out though. What do you think the chances of unvaccinated hcp not having had the virus at this stage is?

Catch up? Why do you want to believe that the findings in Pacmo’s study are more valid than the one I linked to?

Because your linked study is about viral load.

Here's some bits from it.

""But, although people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected, those infected with the delta variant can carry similar virus levels as unvaccinated people, the data show. The authors said the implications for transmission were not yet clear but suggested that the potential for fully vaccinated individuals to transmit the virus to others would make achieving herd immunity more of a challenge."

"...vaccine protection was 90% higher than in unvaccinated people one month after a second Pfizer vaccine, declining to 85% after two months and 78% after three months. For the AstraZeneca vaccine the equivalent protection was 67%, 65%, and 61%, respectively."

The study you linked to hasn't been peer reviewed btw. And doesn't really talk about transmission, which of course, is not the same as viral load, as any fule kno.

@Getyourarseofffthequattro

I'm sure there will be vacancies at their local homeothapy clinic that they will be well suited for

Why do people find it acceptable to have digs at people regarding a choice on a medical procedure?

It's disgusting to be honest and you wouldn't make a shitty comment like that about other procedures.

It's the people who are pro vaccine who are actually being most offensive on this thread. How bad is it that you have to stoop to insults to "encourage" people to comply?

I say this is someone who is vaccinated.

This. Exactly. Thank you.

[quote bumbleymummy]@PAFMO see previous link to BMJ and here’s another:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20211001/Similar-viral-load-in-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-individuals-infected-with-SARS-CoV-2-Delta-variant.aspx

“ The authors of this study did not find any statistically significant difference in mean Ct-values between vaccinated and unvaccinated samples.”[/quote]
That one proves my point, not yours.
Do not pass the Google Go. Do not collect £200.

On my ward there are 4 nurses who haven’t had the jab and I don’t think they will be hanging around to deal with the awful winter stresses to then be fired in the Spring.

This is going to backfire massively on the NHS.

@PAFMO ummmm…. My point was that there is no significant difference between the groups. So if someone is infected, they have the same viral load.

These threads always turn into pages and pages of links to prove the efficacy of the vaccine. Interesting, but not really relevant. Some people will choose not to have the vaccine, for whatever reason - a lot of those people are HCPs, what happens when this mandate leaves the NHS/care homes critically short of staff? Whether you think people should have the vaccine or not is irrelevant, many won't - what then?

And for those HCPs who are vaccinated - are you going to be fine with covering the roles of those who have been sacked?

This government have treat HCWs so badly they'll be an exodus of staff next year, whatever the vaccine status. No one likes to work their arse off to then be treat like shit.

Btw, Shaun Griffin- author of one of the studies linked to by the OP is a freelance journalist and trainee genetics counsellor. Call me old-fashioned but I prefer my vaccination information to come from other sources.

Dr Priyom Bose, on the other hand, is a plant biologist.

As you were.

Definitely going to come back to this thread in March to see if it has aged well or not. I remember how these boards were full of posters declaring that they were not going to take the vaccine. Most did as everybody else did and confidence grew.

@lemmein

These threads always turn into pages and pages of links to prove the efficacy of the vaccine. Interesting, but not really relevant. Some people will choose not to have the vaccine, for whatever reason - a lot of those people are HCPs, what happens when this mandate leaves the NHS/care homes critically short of staff? Whether you think people should have the vaccine or not is irrelevant, many won't - what then?

And for those HCPs who are vaccinated - are you going to be fine with covering the roles of those who have been sacked?

This government have treat HCWs so badly they'll be an exodus of staff next year, whatever the vaccine status. No one likes to work their arse off to then be treat like shit.

If you've been around MN as long as many of us you know that any thread started by certain people is rarely about the topic in the thread title.

[quote bumbleymummy]@PAFMO ummmm…. My point was that there is no significant difference between the groups. So if someone is infected, they have the same viral load.[/quote]
Yes, they do.

But we were talking about likelihood of transmission weren't we?

@Turquoisesea

Of course they are being bullied. The vaccine doesn’t stop you getting it or passing it on it minimises your symptoms and stops you getting so ill! So I could pass Covid on to anyone even though I’m fully vaccinated and if they are fully vaccinated that should help to protect them. I just don’t understand the logic at all of treating the unvaccinated as if they are leper’s or outcasts when being vaccinated does not stop you getting it or passing it on! Surely regular testing is the most important thing whether you are vaccinated or not!

Amen for the voice of good sense.

www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext

“ Vaccination reduces the risk of delta variant infection and accelerates viral clearance. Nonetheless, fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory.”