Vaccines to be compulsory for front line medical staff

[bumbleymummy]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59215282

The covid vaccine, but not the flu vaccine. Although, I suppose the door has been opened for that one now too. They’re being given until spring. I wonder if there will be a massive walk out before winter. If you thought you were going to lose your job come spring, why would you work your ass off all winter? This could majorly backfire.

@vera99

Loads of jobs around at the bottom now so they won't be queuing to take over the care home jobs and the folk leaving will no doubt get better-paid jobs with less hassle. So that will mean vulnerable old folk left unattended uncleaned for hours on end and for exactly what ultimately? The power of the jab is in the recipient preventing hospitalisation and death not in stopping transmission. That much is clear now and what a slap in the face for workers who were in the front line of a novel virus whilst others cowered in their homes and panic buyed and washed their shopping.

This is what happened in the care home in my village which is now closing. Rated as good for many years. Then a CQC inspection - reports of people left in bed for hours wet and soiled. They're allowed to stay open but have thrown in the towel saying they can't raise standards as no staff. Even the cook has left and they can't find a new cook!

@vera99

Indeed Zahawi made a telling comment about how the state should be limited in what it can and should do. The Asian culture of the family looking after their parents at home may be the model we are moving towards - either by accident or design.

And that will have a massive knock on effect mainly for women but also for the economy. It will be mainly women who have to give up work to care for the elderly.

For immunosuppressed patients who need face to face hospital appointments for things like blood monitoring, this is good news.

I absolutely hate the thought of anyone losing their jobs. But when you're dealing with vulnerable people taking all available precautions is essential.

@MareofBeasttown

I think expecting that the vaccine will be extended to outdoor workers seems a bit of an overreach in the UK, given we can't even agree that the NHS should get it. I don't think this is the thin end of the wedge; I think it is necessary.

Why is it necessary when it doesn’t stop you from contracting/spreading the virus? We could use testing/proof of antibodies as alternatives.

Seeing lots of comments on Twitter with people saying they plan to go off on long term sick for stress and will wait to be fired. This will backfire on the government rather quickly. 100,000+ who could potentially walk out of the NHS would be a disaster at this point and only burden the system further.

If I was a conspiracist one could see the Tories framing the looming massive health care crisis as the fault of anti-vaxx refuseniks - nothing to do with them.

Once it's shattered sell it off the juicy bits and the rest are left to fend for themselves. Could be a massive middle-class exodus to health insurance. Indeed 3 of my family / social circles are private now and don't they let you know. £3.5k for a hernia op got it within two weeks of diagnosis - the NHS was a minimum 8-month wait for something that might be put back further.

A lot of people on here are saying the vax does not stop you passing on the virus. It reduces chances of transmission considerably. That hasn;t been emphasised enough, and people continue to argue that the vax is useless because it does not stop ALL transmission.

There is no 100% efffective vaccine. Therefore we make do with an effective vaccine. It is not all or nothing.

This is going to be an ongoing issue and people hoping to avoid vaccination until the latest wave/winter pass are likely to be dissapointed when the requirement remains into next year. Wales extending vaccine passports to cinemas etc and I expect other nations to follow with similar. I think we're all just starting on a longterm cycle of vaccines and antivirals which is terrifying but maybe the reality of "living with covid" without other mitigations

I said 'all available precautions'. I did not say that vaccines prevent transmission entirely. They do, however, reduce it - particularly in situations where all individuals present are vaccinated.

@DavidDevantsSpiritWife

I said 'all available precautions'. I did not say that vaccines prevent transmission entirely. They do, however, reduce it - particularly in situations where all individuals present are vaccinated.

Again and again I see this on MN. If the vaccine does not stop ALL transmission, it is apparently useless in stopping ANY transmission and is only good for keeping people out of hospital.

people continue to argue that the vax is useless because it does not stop ALL transmission.

I don’t see anyone saying it’s useless just that if vaccinated people can still contract transmit the virus, it makes little sense to mandate it for hcps. It’s doing a great job of reducing serious illness/hospitalisation for the individual who has it but that’s not much use to the person they’re caring for.

@MareofBeasttown

A lot of people on here are saying the vax does not stop you passing on the virus. It reduces chances of transmission considerably. That hasn;t been emphasised enough, and people continue to argue that the vax is useless because it does not stop ALL transmission.

There is no 100% efffective vaccine. Therefore we make do with an effective vaccine. It is not all or nothing.

Totally agree. This needs to be emphasised.

@containsnuts

This is going to be an ongoing issue and people hoping to avoid vaccination until the latest wave/winter pass are likely to be dissapointed when the requirement remains into next year. Wales extending vaccine passports to cinemas etc and I expect other nations to follow with similar. I think we're all just starting on a longterm cycle of vaccines and antivirals which is terrifying but maybe the reality of "living with covid" without other mitigations

Why would you accept that? Cases in England have been falling for weeks. They have not had mask mandates since July and don’t have domestic vaccine passports for anywhere. Scotland Wales and Ireland now have have both of those things and their cases are still rising. The data does not support the idea that these are necessary mitigations to ‘live with covid’.

Oh well, I disagree. I think if you are looking after a vulnerable elderly person with poor immunity, you take all the precautions you can.

I am also not keen on tests as a magic bullet because DS had two negative LFTS and then was found to have Covid.

The issue now is the impact of the imminent loss of up to 100,000 caring experienced health care workers who will find getting jobs pretty damn easy now probably at better salaries elsewhere more or less than the impact of them working unvaccinated.

I'd hazard as an informed guess that the loss of staff far outweighs any potential risk in the scheme of things to patients as being treated by unvaccinated HCP's.

@bumbleymummy

people continue to argue that the vax is useless because it does not stop ALL transmission.

I don’t see anyone saying it’s useless just that if vaccinated people can still contract transmit the virus, it makes little sense to mandate it for hcps. It’s doing a great job of reducing serious illness/hospitalisation for the individual who has it but that’s not much use to the person they’re caring for.

It’s very useful for a HCP to be vaccinated if that means they only have a 50% chance of passing on the virus instead of a 85% chance if not vaccinated.

(Numbers made up. I don’t know what they actually are.)

If you're immunosuppressed covid can be be very dangerous. Anything which reduces the risk of transmission is obviously essential in the care of IS patients. To suggest that vaccinations are pointless because they don't stop all transmission is ridiculous.

The flu vaccine doesn't stop all flu infections but that doesn't mean having it is pointless, does it?

If they refuse to be vaccinated because they believe some crackpot conspiracy theory from QAnon they have no business being a frontline healthcare worker.

@MareofBeasttown

Oh well, I disagree. I think if you are looking after a vulnerable elderly person with poor immunity, you take all the precautions you can.

I am also not keen on tests as a magic bullet because DS had two negative LFTS and then was found to have Covid.

But people can have two vaccines and still have covid too.

@RachC2021 Apparently an infected vaccinated person has the same viral load as an infected unvaccinated person.

www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074

To suggest that vaccinations are pointless because they don't stop all transmission is ridiculous.

No one is suggesting this.

I wonder what will happen in say 1+ years time if you’ve chosen to not have your 3rd, 4th or 5th booster jab, will you be considered unvaccinated? Will the mandate be extended to cover boosters?

Would it then be a contractual stipulation to maintain boosters?

It’s going to be interesting to see how this plays out and if other industries adopt a similar approach.

[quote bumbleymummy]@RachC2021 Apparently an infected vaccinated person has the same viral load as an infected unvaccinated person.

www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n2074[/quote]
You missed the part where that article says “people who are fully vaccinated have a lower risk of becoming infected”. If you’re not infected there is nothing to pass on. Therefore jabs are worthwhile.

@bumbleymummy

people continue to argue that the vax is useless because it does not stop ALL transmission.

I don’t see anyone saying it’s useless just that if vaccinated people can still contract transmit the virus, it makes little sense to mandate it for hcps. It’s doing a great job of reducing serious illness/hospitalisation for the individual who has it but that’s not much use to the person they’re caring for.

You can't pass it on if you haven't got it. What's the likelihood of actually catching it reduced by if you're vaccinated? Between 63 and 91% isn't it? Depending on which (reputable) study you read.

but here's some (reputable) facts about transmission from vaccinated people:

"People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent the spread of the coronavirus.

“They absolutely do reduce transmission,” says Christopher Byron Brooke at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “Vaccinated people do transmit the virus in some cases, but the data are super crystal-clear that the risk of transmission for a vaccinated individual is much, much lower than for an unvaccinated individual.”

A recent study found that vaccinated people infected with the delta variant are 63 per cent less likely to infect people who are unvaccinated.

This is only slightly lower than with the alpha variant, says Brechje de Gier at the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment in the Netherlands, who led the study. Her team had previously found that vaccinated people infected with alpha were 73 per cent less likely to infect unvaccinated people.

What is important to realise, de Gier says, is that the full effect of vaccines on reducing transmission is even higher than 63 per cent, because most vaccinated people don’t become infected in the first place.

De Gier and her team used data from the Netherlands’ contact tracing system to work out the so-called secondary attack rate – the proportion of contacts infected by positive cases. They then worked out how much this was reduced by vaccination, adjusting for factors such as age."

Read more: www.newscientist.com/article/2294250-how-much-less-likely-are-you-to-spread-covid-19-if-youre-vaccinated/#ixzz7BjuPjhZt