For those who want restrictions to return...

[Warhertisuff]

When would think it reasonable for those restrictions to be eased again?

Or do you believe restrictions should be a permanent, or at least cyclical, part of life now?

Actually, caring for all members of a society is a normal human instinct.

@milkyaqua

What will be the 'life outcomes' of a generation of children raised by complacent sociopaths, one wonders.

WTF. Ridiculous hyperbole.

@UsedUpUsername

They are actually very tightly connected though. Is saving the life of an elderly person worth destroying the life outcomes of a child? It’s been demonstrated that during the war, children whose education was interrupted had worse outcomes than those who had already completed or had yet to begin their education.

As I noted before, this isn't just about the elderly - an ECV person can be any age. I would also question the hyperbole of "destroying the life outcomes" of children". That's simply divisive. Certainly, it hasn't been easy for kids. Some will have struggled more than others - but life chances destroyed? Few will emerge from this time unscathed.

These types of views are fundamentally abhorrent- ranking people as more worthy to save (kids over the elderly) and the healthy over, again, the elderly and the vulnerable. It may be sensible and natural and just life to you. But to me, who is ECV, this is philosophically an uncomfortable place to inhabit. To you, it is fundamentally human. To me - inhuman.

And those who are genuinely exempt, not those who just don’t like wearing them (who the hell ever does?) should IMO have to wear an officially issued lanyard

Those of you who support this idea should be exclusively responsible for funding it.

Regarding the impact on families, over 12,000 UK children had lost a parent or caregiver through covid, as of July this year (so, likely to be more by now).

Almost 10,000 of these were children who have been orphaned (defined as an under-18 who has experienced the death of one or both parents).

Around 1.5 million children in 21 countries had lost either a parent, grandparent, or caregiver as a direct result of the pandemic in the 14 months between March 2020 and April 2021.

This is from the Telegraph www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/21/12000-uk-children-orphaned-lost-carer-pandemic/

If we are considering the well-being of children, do these children not count in your eyes?

@herecomesthsun

Regarding the impact on families, over 12,000 UK children had lost a parent or caregiver through covid, as of July this year (so, likely to be more by now).

Almost 10,000 of these were children who have been orphaned (defined as an under-18 who has experienced the death of one or both parents).

Around 1.5 million children in 21 countries had lost either a parent, grandparent, or caregiver as a direct result of the pandemic in the 14 months between March 2020 and April 2021.

This is from the Telegraph www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/07/21/12000-uk-children-orphaned-lost-carer-pandemic/

If we are considering the well-being of children, do these children not count in your eyes?

They must count. It’s horrific. The loss of life this virus has caused us heartbreaking beyond belief.

It doesn’t take away from that to also say that the measures taken to control covid have caused untold suffering as well, in terms of poverty, steep rises in child abuse, late presentation of people with cancer etc not to mention mental health generally. It’s a very long list and these are but a few examples.

For my part, I think less of anyone who tries to minimise or downplay how awful either aspect has been.

[quote Dishhh]@UsedUpUsername

They are actually very tightly connected though. Is saving the life of an elderly person worth destroying the life outcomes of a child? It’s been demonstrated that during the war, children whose education was interrupted had worse outcomes than those who had already completed or had yet to begin their education.

As I noted before, this isn't just about the elderly - an ECV person can be any age. I would also question the hyperbole of "destroying the life outcomes" of children". That's simply divisive. Certainly, it hasn't been easy for kids. Some will have struggled more than others - but life chances destroyed? Few will emerge from this time unscathed.

These types of views are fundamentally abhorrent- ranking people as more worthy to save (kids over the elderly) and the healthy over, again, the elderly and the vulnerable. It may be sensible and natural and just life to you. But to me, who is ECV, this is philosophically an uncomfortable place to inhabit. To you, it is fundamentally human. To me - inhuman.[/quote]
Well said.
I see it hasn't taken long for the eugenics fans to crawl out of their swamp.
Sadly, though unsurprisingly, too pig thick to realize that not all ECV people are 95. Still, in their eyes, I suppose the severely disabled child or teenage cancer patient is also not worthy of them putting a mask on.
Scum.

@usedupusername

Your abhorrent views about the elderly belong to you.

Don't you dare try and justify yourself by saying what you feel is normal. It might be for you, but thankfully most "humans" are more humane.

@Mindareno well said. The situation is so highly complex, often the case of choosing the least worst options and recognising that there are negative outcomes whatever we do. Posters like the one above who would rather call someone scum than recognise all this..I mean

[quote Brickskithouse]@Mindareno well said. The situation is so highly complex, often the case of choosing the least worst options and recognising that there are negative outcomes whatever we do. Posters like the one above who would rather call someone scum than recognise all this..I mean [/quote]
I'd rather call someone scum for thinking it's ok that an 80 year old dies a lingering death from Covid because they didn't want to put a mask on, yes.
And as I said. Where's the CEV line?
The 85 year old can be left to die because they're old?
The severely disabled child needing 24/7 care?
The 14 year old cancer patient?

Of course it's complex. My examples above show how complex it is.

It's the eugenics proponents that actually seem to think that only the elderly will die and we did lockdown only to save them.
Or that's their astroturfing anyway.

Wearing a mask might make you feel better but on its own it will make minimal difference to the current situation.

If we are not prepared to accept the current levels of death resulting from covid then realistically we need to introduce significant measures now. Anything less will have very limited, if any, impact.

Almost 10,000 of these were children who have been orphaned (defined as an under-18 who has experienced the death of one or both parents)

I'll be very clear that the loss of any parent is a dreadful thing not to be downplayed; however since when was losing one rather than both being orphaned?
Not for the first time with stats, that sounds to me worryingly like definitions being shifted in order to suit whatever narrative's wanted

No doubt I'll now be told I'm ignoring child bereavement or even wishing parents could die en masse - which would be a shame, since what I'm actually hoping to do is stick with the facts

still rather devastating to lose the one parent, I'd say?

@Sunshinegirl82

Wearing a mask might make you feel better but on its own it will make minimal difference to the current situation.

If we are not prepared to accept the current levels of death resulting from covid then realistically we need to introduce significant measures now. Anything less will have very limited, if any, impact.

20-25% reduction in spread with mask wearing, according to some experts.

That is a bit more than minimal.

Also FFP2 grade masks protect the wearer as well as being quite effective at protecting others.

What if the ECV person you're dismissing here is just 30 years old?

You write as if I imagine that all the CEV are elderly, Dishhh, when that's not the case at all and sadly it can apply no matter what someone's age - even to my own son who's also in his thirties

However, whether 8 or 80 we've all mortal, and while we rightly strive to ensure everyone has a decent life and to save those we can, it just isn't always going to be possible - not because we somehow want to "write them off", but because that's biology

As I've said before, it becomes increasingly clear that some don't just hope for protection from/cure for disease - they'd like immortality, and sadly (or not?) that isn't an option

Still rather devastating to lose the one parent, I'd say?

Of course; that's why my very first words were that "the loss of any parent is a dreadful thing not to be downplayed"

Awful as it is, it's still not the same as being orphaned though, and I do wonder about the motivation behind changing definitions to suit chosen narratives

In today's world of blended families, the definition of an orphan would be more complex wouldn't it?

I think saying that approx 10k children in the UK had lost at least one parent by July 21 is quite specific and not overplaying anything.

And pretty awful.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

As I've said before, it becomes increasingly clear that some don't just hope for protection from/cure for disease - they'd like immortality, and sadly (or not?) that isn't an option

Immortality? I do hope you're talking nonsense as I've never seen one post on here any such hope.

And, yes, you did write as if the CEV were all elderly and on their last legs.

I missed a word - *express any such hope.

For the immunosuppressed, some of whom do not respond to vaccines, we are at the highest risk at any point in the pandemic now because of the high rate of infection.

Many of those are people who look well, feel well and pre covid lived normal, lives. For example transplant patients, or people with autoimmune disease. I'm fitter than most people my age but my infusions to keep me well knock out my antibodies. If I catch it I have high risk of dying, say around 1 in 4, and even higher odds of being very ill and clogging up ICU bed for ages.

The current situation means I cannot see friends except outside, can't work, and basically go for long walks. My partner and children are at school and work so that is a daily infection risk. I'd hate then to feel guilt if they bring it home.

At times it gets mentally challenging being stuck like this for 20 months so far, but I'm lucky I don't have to work like many do since the government stopped 'shielding' advice. We can manage just about without my £.

I worry the health service will fail and normal non-covid treatment will not be available. We shouldn't be a country where kids can die of appendicitis, or heart attacks turn into disabling heart failure because the A and E waits are so long.

I don't see an answer to any of this. The government has lost the public by mixed messaging and hypocrisy and people will not comply no matter how bad it gets.
I do think the economy will be affected badly either way as sickness increases over winter.

If you have immunocompromised friends, do try to understand if they aren't wanting to party and keep in touch in other ways.

You did write as if the CEV were all elderly and on their last legs

Please show me where and I'll gladly apologise - though I'd be surprised if it was written rather than mistakenly assumed, since it's simply not my view

And on the immortality thing, if we regard this as an reluctance to accept that none of us are getting out of here alive, then I stand by my view

@UsedUpUsername

The studies produced as a result suggest very strong and possibly longer lasting effects from the 3rd dose

How can you actually believe this? We were never told immunity would wane as fast as it had last time.

Yes we were.

They made it abundantly clear that they didn't know how long high immunity would last & were at pains to say 'boosters may be required' immunity was being checked as we went, it was spelt out!

Plus if it had 'just' been the alpha variet we'd have been out of the other side by now, stronger varieties need stronger immunity

What was the other option? Not give vaccinations until they started to see if/when immunity started to drop in a study?

Use some common sense!

“ A great deal higher on one side.”

Then you’re lucky to have only seen the worst of one side

@herecomesthsun

But we are not seeing a 20-25% reduction in case numbers in real life see Wales/Scotland. The WHO recommend masks alongside other measures. Masks alone are not going to have significant impact.

[quote SapereAude]@usedupusername

Your abhorrent views about the elderly belong to you.

Don't you dare try and justify yourself by saying what you feel is normal. It might be for you, but thankfully most "humans" are more humane.[/quote]
What’s abhorrent?

The opinion that we shouldn’t use lockdowns that disproportionately affect the young to ‘save’ the elderly?

It should be pointed out that the only thing that really saves the elderly are vaccines.

Please spare me your fake outrage. I never said to withhold treatment or reserve vaccines for the young.

Rather, I am suggesting that the young be free to live their lives without restriction.