For those who want restrictions to return...

[Warhertisuff]

When would think it reasonable for those restrictions to be eased again?

Or do you believe restrictions should be a permanent, or at least cyclical, part of life now?

Mask wearing and social distancing has caused a major problem for the NHS in that all the bugs we normally get exploded to all the time haven't been exposed to us over the last 18 months. Since mask wearing has stopped colds, flu and D&V have been rife and these viruses are now making the vulnerable ill to the point of being hospitalized all at the same time.

So to save the NHS we need to stop wearing masks and build up immunity to the everyday viruses.

Hospitals are full to bursting at the moment and it's not covid that's filling them up.

The rate of infection doesn't matter one bit if people are not actually getting really ill or hospitalized.

People need to stop loosing their minds over infection rates of covid and start asking how many covid infections are converting to hospital admissions. That's the important number.

I think the perspective of people in the NHS is that we should wear masks, follow the "3 Cs" principles and keep levels down. Senior medics are calling for strong restrictive measures. So I think PP has got things completely backwards.

[quote herecomesthsun]@Sunshinegirl82

All the rhetoric has been around "freedom" and not around individuals taking responsibility.

Even if we don't have a crisis purely caused by covid but caused rather by a mixture of covid and RSV/ flu over winter, we may find ourselves in a position where stringent measures or possibly some sort of closure is happening later in the winter.

Promoting the "3Cs" more effectively now could reduce that if not stave it off altogether.

And it would give the schoolkids and their more vulnerable teachers
& parents more time to get vaccinations.[/quote]
That's fine, I'd have no objection to it being promoted but it doesn't involve any sort of fundamental shift in policy by government, other than a bit more leading by example.

It was the press that took the "freedom day" position, it has never been policy.

@herecomesthsun if we all distance etc this winter to prevent RSV/ flu as well as covid don't we just face exactly the same situation again next winter?

@Whichjab

I want it forever, I want all our freedom curtailed. I want to destroy every vestige of happiness I once knew

😂

Regardless of Covid rates I personally don’t want to live in a society where it becomes normalised for children never to see adults smile at them in a public place. Because where kids are concerned any long term/indefinite indoor mask mandate wouldn’t just constitute ‘popping one on to go to Waitrose’; it would mean masked baby groups and classes, schools, most extra-curricular activities, theatres… If that looked like being the case for my own child’s future I’d seek to move elsewhere if at all possible.

As far as the UK is concerned, this is a "straw man" argument. Requiring masks on public transport would not result in children never seeing adults smile at them in a public place! And it's perfectly possible to impose a mask mandate on public transport without imposing it on baby groups (or indeed in any other situation).

@LilyPond2 I’m not arguing against masks on public transport, or in shops. I’m arguing against the numerous posts upthread that have called for a mask mandate ‘in all indoor places’ or ‘in all public places’.

It’s not a straw man argument if it’s something that has been seriously suggested by others. Indeed, in arguing against the people who disingenuously insist that any potential mask mandate only affects people for ten minutes while visiting the supermarket.

[quote makelovenotpetrol]@PrincessNutNuts no that's not what I said.
I don't think we should do anything more about covid other than let it just become a part of life.[/quote]
Well welcome to that. We're living it.

@PrincessNutNuts good.

@lilypond2 I suggest understanding rest of UK rules before saying it would not be required or its a straw man argument. In Scotland some baby groups do require the parents to wear masks as they are indoor settings, swimming doesn't neither does some baby language classes or baby gym but others do. Same with secondary school education all wear masks and primary school teachers wear masks if not at distance from the children. They are required in theatres, cinema, groups which aren't sporting activities.

It's hardly strawman when it's already in law and implemented in Scotland, just because it isn't in England doesn't mean the rest of us aren't living with these types of things and in Scotland we had a much greater case rate than England has currently in September so many people don't see the law as making any difference to case rate!

“And it's perfectly possible to impose a mask mandate on public transport without imposing it on baby groups (or indeed in any other situation).”

For over a year baby and toddler groups either ran with masks or not at all - in fact groups for non-mobile babies were much more likely to be reinstated because they could keep their distance. Most people couldn’t make it work within the rules for toddlers who are harder to keep apart from others. It may not be that way in England any more but please don’t pretend it never happened.

I'm exempt from wearing a mask so bringing them back won't affect me, but from how I've seen people use them I doubt they'd make much of a difference. They reuse them without washing them, throw them in the back of the car for another time etc.
I'm hoping things like anti virals and boosters will help. Covid isn't going away, but lockdowns aren't the answer in my opinion. I won't not see my family again. I don't want the last few years I have wasted.
If people can work from home then they should be allowed to. If people think it's too risky going to a bar etc, they can make the choice not to go.
I'd not go on public transport if I was snotting and coughing everywhere anyway, this including pre covid.
Also, it would be nice if one thousandth of the research that's gone into Covid would go into my condition.
Some people will say restrictions till Covid isn't an issue. What if that takes ten/fifteen years?

Re messaging, Johnson made a big deal about it all being "irreversible " (till suddenly it wasn't). He also didn't distance himself from the Freedom Day rhetoric in the press, which would have been easy to do.

There wasn't much sense of a need for caution or of scientific principles behind a plan.

I'm not surprised people were confused.

@RichTeaRichTea

“And it's perfectly possible to impose a mask mandate on public transport without imposing it on baby groups (or indeed in any other situation).”

For over a year baby and toddler groups either ran with masks or not at all - in fact groups for non-mobile babies were much more likely to be reinstated because they could keep their distance. Most people couldn’t make it work within the rules for toddlers who are harder to keep apart from others. It may not be that way in England any more but please don’t pretend it never happened.

@RichTeaRichTea I am not pretending anything. Read what I actually said

@herecomesthsun

Re messaging, Johnson made a big deal about it all being "irreversible " (till suddenly it wasn't). He also didn't distance himself from the Freedom Day rhetoric in the press, which would have been easy to do.

There wasn't much sense of a need for caution or of scientific principles behind a plan.

I'm not surprised people were confused.

Exactly. And getting rid of mandatory masks very much sent the message, "Get back to pre-Covid normal with no precautions!"

The point is LilyPond2 that it doesn’t matter what you or anyone else thinks is reasonable in terms of limits around mask wearing - it did happen and it did make a big difference to that age group so it is reasonable that people are concerned about it happening again.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

You might try to be a bit more imaginative than that, Dishhh, with the tired old "have you heard of caring?" and "writing off the elderly/vulnerable". I don't imagine anyone but a psychopath would want to write people off, because people generally do care

But unfortunately the virus doesn't, so IMO there comes a time to accept that we can't control everything, not everyone can be saved all the time and there's only so much can be sacrificed while we wait for the magic bullet that doesn't exist, artificially squashing waves that will only come roaring back later

Again, I don't say all this because I want it to be so - naturally nobody does - but the lack of acceptance of our own mortality is wearing a little thin

Oh, it's wearing a bit thin? So sorry. What if the ECV person you're dismissing here is just 30 years old?

Again, I don't say all this because I want it to be so - naturally nobody does - but the lack of acceptance of our own mortality is wearing a little thin

This blasé attitude towards other people's mortality is so prevalent on MN. I'd love to hear your opinions on, of course, accepting your own mortality as you are transferred to a ventilator... But that can't possibly happen to you! No, it's for other people, who are getting in the way of the unempathic and unimaginative's pretending that nothing is actually happening all over the world.

I can see lack of empathy and imagination on both sides tbh

@RichTeaRichTea

I can see lack of empathy and imagination on both sides tbh

A great deal higher on one side.

@milkyaqua

Again, I don't say all this because I want it to be so - naturally nobody does - but the lack of acceptance of our own mortality is wearing a little thin

This blasé attitude towards other people's mortality is so prevalent on MN. I'd love to hear your opinions on, of course, accepting your own mortality as you are transferred to a ventilator... But that can't possibly happen to you! No, it's for other people, who are getting in the way of the unempathic and unimaginative's pretending that nothing is actually happening all over the world.

But you are sacrificing the lives of the younger generation to accomplish this. Not just direct lives lost due to drug overdose, suicide or domestic violence but also lack of educational or vocational success has been demonstrably shown to shorten life years. They always needed to be put first and they’ve been put last in this. It will bear bitter fruit in the decades to come.

But you are sacrificing the lives of the younger generation to accomplish this.

I personally am not sacrificing any lives. I am commenting on an attitude to life itself. And you seem to be conflating 'lives' as in social lives, with actual life v death, by the way.

@milkyaqua

But you are sacrificing the lives of the younger generation to accomplish this.

I personally am not sacrificing any lives. I am commenting on an attitude to life itself. And you seem to be conflating 'lives' as in social lives, with actual life v death, by the way.

They are actually very tightly connected though. Is saving the life of an elderly person worth destroying the life outcomes of a child? It’s been demonstrated that during the war, children whose education was interrupted had worse outcomes than those who had already completed or had yet to begin their education.

What will be the 'life outcomes' of a generation of children raised by complacent sociopaths, one wonders.

@milkyaqua

What will be the 'life outcomes' of a generation of children raised by complacent sociopaths, one wonders.

I don’t see how it’s sociopathic to put the younger generations first, it’s a normal human instinct.