To think most people would prefer pubs and restaurants close in December than miss out on Christmas with their families again.

[katedan]

Plan C of the health secretaries plan if numbers continue to rise and masks and SD don't work is to ban people going around peoples homes again, surely it is better and safer as it will be less people together if they close bars and restaurants and let people have Christmas with family this year.

@bluetongue because, as has been proved many many times of late, our government is criminally stupid.

Wow so the.caring Mumsnet don't really care about business and pubs ect who pay taxes.

There is old people.go in pubs and.thats there contact, you want to take that away.

@bluetongue

I’m not in the UK but why haven’t the government there considered just shutting the unvaccinated out of businesses? I know Boris hates the idea of a vaccine passport but it has to be better to lockdown the unvaccinated and let the vaccinated live without restrictions.

Obviously you couldn’t stop the unvaccinated meeting with family but passports would be a big incentive for the hesitant to get jabbed.

I'm very, very pro-jab (I'll have had four by the time I'm done) but I can see why vaccine passports could be discriminatory. Quite aside from those who cannot be vaccinated for health reasons (you'd hope there would be exemptions in place but we've seen from mask exemption that those affected are not always treated fairly). Also, many people don't have smartphones, or find them confusing (my DH doesn't have one). Will paper ones be available? Will they be acceptable in all businesses, or will it be like T&T where some insisted on checking in with a phone?

There a lot that needs to be ironed out before they're introduced.

And don't countries which use them have other restrictions anyway?

@fourminutestosavetheworld

I don't want anything to close again. I don't care how many people are infected as long as they are not dying, and they're not. Infections are not translating to deaths. Of those hospitalised, 80% are unvaccinated so I'd rather see more people persuaded to vaccinate.

I slavishly followed every rule, even when many others weren't, but I've had enough now. If I feel like this then I think a lot of other people do too - unenforceable.

The only people I know now who are worried about infections are very anxious people who haven't left the house since March 2020.

Is it really 80% of hospital cases unvaccinated?

If that is so perhaps we should have the vaccine passport since its tge unvaccinated clogging up the hospitals so restricted movements for them and let the rest of us get on with it 😀

I couldn't care less about Christmas

I’m in favour of vaccinate passports for entry to entertainment venues, paper ones are available I believe. I would expect that if it were introduced that an exemption cert for those unable to receive the vaccines be also available. I used the vaccine proof on my nhs app to gain access to a theatre in August, very easy to prove I’d been jabbed. The only part I’m uneasy about is mandatory jabs for jobs, going to pubs, entertainment is a choice but work isn’t so more difficult to opt out if you don’t want the vaccines. Such a dilemma, glad I don’t have to make decisions like this!

I just cannot get my head round people who think vaccine passports will have any effect on spread and case numbers . Have none of you seen or read that vaccinated people can still be infected and infected others? Even at a reduced level, it’s still a fact.
Don’t be fooled by other countries who have it in place and it looks like it works on case numbers. Israel had it in place and then saw a huge surge of cases in late summer causing them to bring back a large amount of other restrictions as well as cancelling anyone’s passport who hadn’t had at least 3 injections. France introduced theirs just at the peak of a natural wave so it looked like it had a great effect. However, cases have just started their seasonal shift upwards there too.
Please don’t wish for this highly discriminatory and useless tool.
I know it is age and demographic related but 88% of over 80’s in hospital are double vaccinated. The unvaccinated and teens are not driving this pandemic, that is pure and simple government and media bullshit. Teens may be contributing to case levels currently but not hospitalisations and they are estimating that by Christmas, so many teens and kids will have been infected that a wave is very unlikely to occur in this age group again.

They actually said this morning that the modelling shows will reach the peak of this soon and by Christmas they expect cases to have dropped right down again.

@Lostinacloud is there any point in repeating that vaccines do reduce transmission? They don't eliminate it no.

Only about 10% of the population are unvaccinated. Some unable medically, clearly the should be exempt from vaccine passports.

So vaccine passports are only going to affect the folk within that 10% who want to go to crowded places. Not a number that is worth worrying about.

This household couldn't care less if X family can't go panto this year because they are unvaccinated by choice. We (hopefully) will be there in a packed theatre full of vaccinated families having a great time.

The 10% utter minority should not dictate basic common sense during a pandemic in the winter months. Honestly fuck 'em who cares what they think?

If people prefer that, they can volunteer to stop going to the pub and other venues snd slow the spread?

And furlough is finished so how will all those people survive?

@maternitycoat

If people prefer that, they can volunteer to stop going to the pub and other venues snd slow the spread?

Well, there is that. I do wonder all the people constantly bleating on about wanting things closed and lockdowns etc - are they staying at home and only going out if necessary? And I don't class, grocery shopping isn't necessary - order online. Not going to pubs, not seeing friends and family, kids not seeing friends. I highly doubt it. But they could just choose to stay at home and make it better for the rest of us who want to go out.

@frozendaisy, not much point repeating that vaccines do reduce transmission when here we are in October facing talk of an overwhelmed NHS and possibly facing more restrictions again when nearly 75% of the entire population is vaccinated. They obviously don’t reduce spread enough otherwise we wouldn’t be in this situation because of a few kids and a tiny amount of the population who have chosen not to be vaccinated.

What is worth making a point of is what a fucking horrible attitude towards people who have made a different medical decision to you. I hope you are not as critical and discriminatory about other people who make different choices to you.

I would also argue that we have all put our lives on hold and people have not been able to go to funerals, weddings, see family, visit loved ones in hospital or care homes, people have lost their businesses and children massive chunks of their education so we could apparently protect the elderly and vulnerable from an illness that in a large part rarely seriously affects most people under 65. We have all done this to protect a minor percentage of total population.
An unvaccinated person does not stop your vaccine from working so why do you care?

Take a look at the HCP thread under this topic, nearly every single poster on there cites the lack of GP and social care service and places in care homes or assisted care packages as the reason for the difficult time in the NHS, not covid patients. Several quote that one third of beds are taken up with patients well enough to go home but for whom there is nowhere to send them due time the enormous shutdown of social care as a result of the covid response. The unvaccinated, probably most of whom are younger than than the vulnerable ages are not causing the problem and shunning them from society will not have any effect. In fact if vaccine mandates come in and some HCP wish to remain unvaccinated it makes the situation even worse with an even greater lack of staff, as has already been seen in care homes.
Take off your venomous glasses focused only at the unvaccinated and see the bigger picture. Your attitude is disgraceful.

One last point to ponder @frozendaisy, Lithuania has one of the most draconian vaccine passports schemes in the whole world and you would approve because unvaccinated people are basically not allowed anywhere. They can’t even go into supermarkets or small grocery shops and pharmacies who have been forced to ask for the pass or agree to only 1 customer at a time which isn’t sustainable to their business. Unvaccinated people now have to rely on open air markets (for the moment) or being self sufficient.

But….what is their current case incidence rate?

1400 per 100,000. And they have almost the same as the U.K. in terms of population vaccinated.

You’re barking up the wrong tree and while I appreciate i have stressed this point quite heavily, I feel passionately that we must not turn on each other or apportion blame to anyone other than the government.

We have all done this to protect a minor percentage of total population.An unvaccinated person does not stop your vaccine from working so why do you care?

I have seen other posters make the same replies @Lostinacloud so not sure if there is much point in replying.

A "minor proportion" of the population correlates to a huge number of people when you are talking about huge denominators (i.e., millions of people infected with coronavirus). The fact that it is a small percentage of people who get seriously ill, need hospital care, have long term complications or die is meaningless. This is on top of the issues caused to the economy and infrastructure when you have so many people mildly ill at once or needing to isolate.

No one is claiming unvaccinated people stop "your vaccine working". But again, this is meaningless. It is an infectious disease pandemic, everyone is either directly or indirectly impacted by high transmission rates.

It seems you are determined to minimise coronavirus though.

Except we did not protect the most vulnerable in care homes. They were left to die.

My purpose is not to minimise coronavirus it is to maximise awareness of the huge damage being done to people’s lives, mental health, businesses and personal relationships due to ongoing covid restrictions and the refusal to take note and properly deal with anything other than covid.

In case it wasn’t obvious I am also vehemently against vaccine passports and the division, discrimination and blame culture such a measure brings. Sadly those are on their way already though so everyone will just have to see for themselves. Only minutes ago I saw a job advert on the DWP website looking for homeworkers for a call centre to assist with the implementation of vaccine passports . Erm, but I thought plan B was not required?

Brilliant posts @Lostinacloud

@Lostinacloud I think the business I work for is going to close. What has hammered it is the lack of ability of being able to plan. Even with restrictions it would have done much better with an idea of what is coming than the constant, no we are not going to do this, oh all right we will. Planning is impossible.
The lack of certainty also impacts mental health along with the constant mixed messages.

@Lostinacloud

My purpose is not to minimise coronavirus it is to maximise awareness of the huge damage being done to people’s lives, mental health, businesses and personal relationships due to ongoing covid restrictions and the refusal to take note and properly deal with anything other than covid.

In case it wasn’t obvious I am also vehemently against vaccine passports and the division, discrimination and blame culture such a measure brings. Sadly those are on their way already though so everyone will just have to see for themselves. Only minutes ago I saw a job advert on the DWP website looking for homeworkers for a call centre to assist with the implementation of vaccine passports . Erm, but I thought plan B was not required?

The situation isn't coroanvirus restrictions verus normal life, it's coronavirus restrictions verus life with an uncontrolled pandemic.

All the impacts you're worried about will come to pass if cases breach a certain threshold.

Ok, so if we were all like LostinaCloud and had exercised our right not to get vaccinated…..

Cast your mind back to early on in the pandemic, with the worry that huge numbers of people infected and seriously ill at the same time could lead to the collapse of the NHS, essential workers (water, gas, electricity, sewage) sick and supply chains broken, so no food.

So are vaccines such a crap idea? They may not be 100% but they have saved our skins by ameliorating the effects of the virus.

By all means don’t have the vaccine, but if you end up sicker than you might have been with one, then have the good grace to be relieved that your situation was not replicated by millions of people.

You’ve 100% missed my point there @DottyHarmer. I’m not talking about vaccines, other than noting that everyone should have bodily autonomy and not be discriminated against for choosing not to be vaccinated.

For what it’s worth I caught covid before vaccines were available and apart from it lasting about 3-4 days, I have honestly had worst hangovers. Certainly it was the experience that we were told to expect if unlucky enough to catch covid as an adult younger than around 65. And I caught it in a European country always quoted on here as mask compliant with no exceptions or grumbling.

My point is almost the opposite of what you have misinterpreted - we DO have vaccines now and so it is time to get on with life without anymore restrictions, passports or interference in our day to day private and family lives. If not now then when because we were promised freedom if we were all vaccinated and now we are promised freedom only if we are vaccinated again. But when does that cycle end and is that really a reasonable way to live out the foreseeable? Being granted our freedom based on taking a vaccine or else facing more restrictions?

@AnkleDeep

YANBU.

Family matters more than pubs. They aren't essential.

Pubs are pretty essential if your livelihood depends on them.

Quite right @Lesina. I am sure to those who work in the hospitality industry they are extremely essential.