How many covid deaths per month is too many?

[PrincessNutNuts]

3000? 4000? 5000? 6000?

At what point would you begin to be uncomfortable with the body count caused by the government policy colloquially known as "living" with covid?

Boris Johnson has been reported as saying that unless 50,000 are going to die he's not changing course.

This number can be expressed as about 238 dead British people every day from September - March inclusive, or 137 deaths per day over a year. Or 416 per day from November - February inclusive.

Is another 50,000 on the covid death toll ok with you?

Or not?

@MercyBooth

YY *@CherryBlossomWinter* Imagine if two and half years ago we got

Be a nation of scruffs
Protect the NHS.

oh we would have laughed and then said piss off
The country has been psychologically nudged into seeing this as normal.

And the resentment it is causing towards the NHS shouldnt be underestimated.

The architect of that particular nudge is an evil genius. Persuading us we are ‘protecting the NHS’ whilst simultaneously making us resent it and those who work for it.

All those hardworking nurses and GPs, who are somehow heroes who prevent the dying from being with their loved ones and are worked to the bone whilst spending two days a week on the golf course.

It’s breathtaking in its abhorrence and fits in so well with the Long term plan of privatisation.

You do realise there are studies that show sitting down all day and doing dya an hour in the gym doesn't make up for being sat down all day.

Sorry but that is bollocks. It depends on the exercise. I sit down most of the day and do an hour or 46 mins at the gym.

That hour is circuits hiit or weight training.

I can see the difference in my back and shoulders and arms, etc etc. I am so much stronger too from lifting weights. It is far more than an additional direct debit.

I admit I’m now a little lost in the thread… buying sports bras and letting people die of Covid because the planet is over populated? Where have I woken up?!

(Although buying sports bras sounds a great idea)

@CherryBlossomWinter

I admit I’m now a little lost in the thread… buying sports bras and letting people die of Covid because the planet is over populated? Where have I woken up?!

(Although buying sports bras sounds a great idea)

Welcome to the Mumsnet Covid Board.

@NearlyAlwaysInsane

Am I the only one here who is grateful that I do NOT live in NZ? A bunch of islands that are super-isolated from the rest of the world, which have been even more isolated for more than two years (taking lessons from North Korea?), and where there is no endgame in sight apart from covid magically disappearing from the rest of the world. And good ole Jacinda still beaming for the cameras while her island shitshow continues.

Er, yeah, that's quite a weird view point - they are economically better off, have spent far fewer days in lockdown and have basicaly zero additional healthcare costs.

Whether you think the UK could have followed something similar or not - any fool can read a GDP chart and recognise the UK is FUCKED economically and in terms of a broken healthcare system. The Chancellor is lying about the numbers - has stated he wants incorrect numbers - to try to hide the reality.

I'm not sure what number, but certainly less than now. It doesn't sit right with me that we are doing so little with the number of deaths we are having.

I'd like to be more in line with countries that seem to have a balance between some protective measures and deaths. I think masks in public indoor places and on transport would help those already vulnerable to live life at less risk as well as help reduce number of infections for example. I don't think we should have got rid of them.

Covid can cause organ damage which can have implications on quality of life and lifespan, so to me it's not just about death in the short term. Covid also impacts on availability of treatment for other illnesses, so there is increased risk of death there.

Kokeshi123, but as I understand, you live in the country with minimum restrictions, where they had no actual lockdown?

Yes, absolutely, for which I am very grateful. I would not say "minimum restrictions" exactly-they did close schools for 10 weeksbut life has been fairly normal here with relatively few deaths.

Slim population with little vitamin D deficiency though. I think the UK's crap diets and obesity have really been a massive factor in the relative lethality of COVID, frankly.

When I say "no more restrictions" I'm talking about the UK. My friends and family are there. I think indoor masks and closing down the "big mass-spreader events" for the winter would be a good idea to slow the spread and reduce viral loads just for this last winter, until COVID is truly endemic and has "bedded in" with the population having a certain level of immunity.

However, as I mentioned before, it's too late now---a huge number of people in the UK have been so bloody scarred by the awful experience of the lockdowns, that even the slightest hint of "just maybe we could put masks on indoors and not do indoor sporting fixtures for a few months" is enough to cause them to spiral, believing that this is likely to be the thin edge of the wedge.

As I mentioned, the creepy zero-COVID types ( on here and elsewhere) are partly responsible for this. People are pushing back violently in part because they're only too aware that there are people who are happy with a lot of unpleasantly dystopian stuff dragging on for years or perhaps forever.

Do put your alternative expectations for the next four months here if you like.

There will be a rise in deaths and hospitalizations, because it is bloody winter that that is what respiratory viruses, like, do. Every winter.

The NHS will have a shit time, but then, I've been told "TWO WEEKS TO SAVE THE NHS" every winter since I was about 5, because the NHS is inherently a bit crap and never seems to be able to function very well in winter anyway. I'm afraid the NHS IN CRISIS stuff becomes white-noise after a while.

The rise will be nothing like what we have seen in previous winters because we have this vaccine, which you may possibly have heard of, and because there is now quite a lot of immunity in the population.

As "pandemic" turns into "endemic" after this winter, we will see deaths and hospitalizations tick upwards each winter, somewhat, but not in a terribly exciting way, more like flu. Although some people on here will continue to find COVID deaths inherently far more exciting than deaths from any other kind of cause.

The issue will still be seen on the front pages of the news in the UK this winter, but will probably not be the first item on the news any more. After this winter, it will gradually fade into an also--ran news item, without actually disappearing altogether. This is already gradually happening in the northern European countries like Denmark where the pandemic is largely over since they are further along the endemicity road than we are.

OK, predictions over.

@Kokeshi123

As I mentioned, the creepy zero-COVID types ( on here and elsewhere) are partly responsible for this. People are pushing back violently in part because they're only too aware that there are people who are happy with a lot of unpleasantly dystopian stuff dragging on for years or perhaps forever.

I'm amused by your trying to push this blame onto others. The only unpleasant people I see are the violent ones protesting against public health measures in a pandemic, plus a group on this board who are also consistently deeply disagreeable to anyone who might support said public health measures.

I'm more worried about how many people are going to die from cancer or heart disease because it hasn't been picked up in time. Statistically you have a better chance of survival from covid rather than cancer.

Cancer and other treatments are huge worry.
I am sure behind the scenes there's an acceptable figure not that they ever say it.
So many taken before their time or went a bit sooner as had other illness that made covid lethal.

@seb342

I'm more worried about how many people are going to die from cancer or heart disease because it hasn't been picked up in time. Statistically you have a better chance of survival from covid rather than cancer.

You also have a much higher chance of surviving cancer/surgery/everything if your ICU bed occupancy is not already at 90% with high amounts of covid stopping people accessing treatment.

You can't worry about cancer separately from the rest of the NHS.

It is completely stupid to try to ignore COVID - as the government is doing - and then start wringing hands about lack of healthcare.

Unless you intend to leave COVID patients to die on the street - high levels of COVID cases are going to disrupt carefor other conditions including cancer.

@seb342

I'm more worried about how many people are going to die from cancer or heart disease because it hasn't been picked up in time. Statistically you have a better chance of survival from covid rather than cancer.

What if you have both - statistically?

I agree with alll points we need to bring the high levels of infection down.
As we have significant bed problem and staff problem all because the infection is so prevalent.
Even some off with their covid kids.
Because they dident consider the wider effects of letting infections get out
of control.

Pretending covid gone away won't help cancer patients.

Everyone across the spectrum of opinion has been well goaded by this thread

But the OP got what she wanted from it, so at least someone’s happy

What if you have both - statistically?

Depends which cancer

If a blood cancer, then you are in the group most overrepresented in both ICU admissions and deaths. Others depend more on the stage and type of treatment.

But once diagnosed, the person is CEV, and according to some posters in some threads, going to die anyhow and we can't take society level measures to keep them safe.

We need to sort out whether we as a society, want to take measures (such as masks on public transport and in essential shops) so that even the vulnerable can participate in done of life. Because we are all,only one diagnosis away from joining them.

(You get told off on here for spitting sanctimonious drivel if you point out that it's a basic measure of consideration)

@RichTeaRichTea

Everyone across the spectrum of opinion has been well goaded by this thread

But the OP got what she wanted from it, so at least someone’s happy

I haven't!

I'm more concerned about the thousands of people who will die this winter and the tens of thousands who will suffer extreme hardship due to the perfect storm of rising fuel and food prices, shortages and removal of the UC uplift.

While it's obviously true that many covid deaths might have been prevented if more decisive action had been taken, it's also true that almost all poverty related deaths could be prevented. Poverty is almost entirely preventable, the spread of a virus not so much.

Poverty is a far greater threat to health than Covid.

We need to sort out whether we as a society, want to take measures (such as masks on public transport and in essential shops) so that even the vulnerable can participate in done of life. Because we are all,only one diagnosis away from joining them.

Masks are always seen as the "go to" restriction that will make things better. Far better for CEV to wear proper FFP2 masks and focus on supporting that than try to push for mandatory mask wearing. It's already mandatory on the Underground and a significant proportion don't wear them. As for shops, they're largely a recreational activity. Most things can be bought online and shopping can be delivered.

@TheVampiresWife

I'm more concerned about the thousands of people who will die this winter and the tens of thousands who will suffer extreme hardship due to the perfect storm of rising fuel and food prices, shortages and removal of the UC uplift.

While it's obviously true that many covid deaths might have been prevented if more decisive action had been taken, it's also true that almost all poverty related deaths could be prevented. Poverty is almost entirely preventable, the spread of a virus not so much.

Poverty is a far greater threat to health than Covid.

Hear bloody hear.

Of course we should be doing more about poverty. I don't see it as an either/or. We should be doing more about covid.

@beentoldcomputersaysno

Of course we should be doing more about poverty. I don't see it as an either/or. We should be doing more about covid.

That would probably take some significant research and expertise to unpick, but I'm inclined to disagree based on what we've seen so far. They do feel somewhat intrinsically linked.

Agree, they are linked.

@beentoldcomputersaysno

Of course we should be doing more about poverty. I don't see it as an either/or. We should be doing more about covid.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that covid is not the be all and end all, and that poverty is a far greater - and more easily preventable - threat to public health this winter. Also, covid outcomes for those who live with poverty are more likely to be poorer than for those who do not. Address poverty and there will be fewer covid deaths as a result.

@PrincessNutNuts

I don't think like our current government.

The idea of our Prime Minister saying that 50,000 people could be set to die as a result of his covid policies before he would change course boggles my mind.

But I have a life.

And I try and make plans.

So I try to understand how our government thinks.

I can't ask them questions.

But I can ask people with similar viewpoints on the internet.

The Mumsnet covid board has the highest concentration of that "living with covid" viewpoint anywhere I go on the internet

So I asked.

In the hope that some of you would have a line beyond which you'd be uncomfortable with the avoidable deaths of British people from a preventable disease.

Because from that I would try to work out when the Tory faithful would get restless, when our populist PM would implement Plan B, and when that fails because it will be too little too late as always, I would expect the next lockdown to be called.

So thank you if you gave a number, I'm not making Christmas plans.

Or New Year plans

Or Valentines Day plans.

Some people really love to stir people up.

What do you 'get' out of it @PrincessNutNuts. Your aim is what exactly? Why do you keep banging on about NZ?

Happy with the answers you have received so far.