How many covid deaths per month is too many?

[PrincessNutNuts]

3000? 4000? 5000? 6000?

At what point would you begin to be uncomfortable with the body count caused by the government policy colloquially known as "living" with covid?

Boris Johnson has been reported as saying that unless 50,000 are going to die he's not changing course.

This number can be expressed as about 238 dead British people every day from September - March inclusive, or 137 deaths per day over a year. Or 416 per day from November - February inclusive.

Is another 50,000 on the covid death toll ok with you?

Or not?

@TheKeatingFive

It’s easy to say “enforced exercise etc” but our society doesn’t give us enough time.

Lol, turn off the internet for set periods of the day and stop broadcast tv and people would find the time.

There are all the excuses in the world, but the problem is we haven't fostered a culture of taking responsibility for our own health and that is ultimately the major issue that puts pressure on the health service.

Enforced exercise and diets would save so many lives!

If forcing people into one set of behaviours and restrictions is ok to "save the NHS" then forcing them into another is ok too 👌 (but i suspect there will be multitude of reasons why it completely different...)

There were people who were fit and healthy who exercised alot who still died of covid. So just saying all these posts about enforced exercise etc...well it didn't help those people who you would call fit much did it.

There were people who were fit and healthy who exercised alot who still died of covid.

Sure.

Fit and healthy people however would be a lot less likely to get type 2 diabetes, they complications of which puts more strain on the health service than any other illness.

@Dreamstate

There were people who were fit and healthy who exercised alot who still died of covid. So just saying all these posts about enforced exercise etc...well it didn't help those people who you would call fit much did it.

But its not about dying of covid. Its about people dying "unnecessarily" of other illnesses and conditions too. Why can we not apply the same logic?

I bet if you rewound time 2 years and posted on MN in October 2019 asking about excess deaths, or how many people on average died every day in the UK, nobody would have a clue.

But since the start of this pandemic we've had DEATH and DYING headlining every bulletin on the news. And for some people it seems to have come as a bit of a shock that we're all going to die, and have a cause of death put on the certificate.

As for being "happy" with a number of deaths pulled out of thin air, well of course the world would be lovely - if somewhat overcrowded - if nobody ever died.

Clearly the answer the OP is expecting is zero. Every single death from Covid is an absolute tragedy which could have been avoided if the government had just done X, Y or Z. It's a very negative mindset - OP is absolutely free to stay in her house for the rest of her life, never going anywhere or doing anything out of fear of catching Covid. But what is unreasonable is expecting the rest of us to do the same when we have ALL made considerable sacrifices already over the last 18 months and are still making them. Life is unfortunately definitely not back to normal in Scotland, and it's just been announced that kids in school have to keep wearing masks "for now". Not because science says so, but because the unions say so.

So to put it bluntly OP, I have no idea how many deaths is "too many" and quite frankly I have no interest in thinking about it. Vaccinations and boosters are working. Time to move on.

@Dreamstate

There were people who were fit and healthy who exercised alot who still died of covid. So just saying all these posts about enforced exercise etc...well it didn't help those people who you would call fit much did it.

And they were a minority of deaths and unlucky. There is no getting away from obesity being a major risk factor for covid as well as other diseases such as cancer.

I bet if you rewound time 2 years and posted on MN in October 2019 asking about excess deaths, or how many people on average died every day in the UK, nobody would have a clue.

Yes. There was a lot of very different levels of knowledge back then. Much of the terminlology we have heard and internalised over the last 18 months was unknown, unused by the vast majority of people who now use it daily.

One prolific poster vehemently took me to task because I had the temerity to suggest that we would still be living with restrictions some 18 months after the first lockdown. I further compounded my scaremongering by saying that even if we did get a vaccine there would be more, seasonal restrictions, possibly for a number of years.

Now, that same poster is using the same terminology I was then, is discussing future restrictions. Because we all learned something.

One of the things we have learned is that WE JUST DON'T KNOW many things. Including the future effects of covid.

So all we can do is decide for ourselves how much we will 'soldier on'.

So no, I have no idea what covid death toll is acceptable. Something closely akin to the flu toll I suspect - though whether that will be additional or the two rates will combine to be roughly equivalent to the extant flue rate - I have no idea! Time will tell, I suppose.

I feel that it's spectacularly goady to ask posters to pull numbers of hypothetical dead people out of their arses.

I do wonder what OPs agenda is.
I have a feeling they are in Russia 🤣

I feel that it's spectacularly goady to ask posters to pull numbers of hypothetical dead people out of their arses.

Can't say I'm surprised given the poster in question

To be fair, the princess has often been quite useful in giving posters a springboard from which to launch some facts, figures, truths.

Odd, self absorbed, but occasionally quite useful

I also enjoyed this kind of utter bollocks

I'm a can do, hard working, positive "always do your best" sort of person so surrendering to a virus isn't in me.

🙄

Positive?!

@TheKeatingFive

What things could we do that we don’t?

I find it strange that people have to ask this.

So many things.

Limit/ban sales of alcohol, red meat, highly processed foods, cigarettes.

Strict weight management programmes.

Enforced exercise regimes.

Taking cars off the road, limiting their usage, only allowing the safest/least polluting models.

Trebling people's taxes so we could pay for the most effective drugs.

As a starting point.

I was watching a programme about North Korea last night...

I was watching a programme about North Korea last night.

Well quite

Out brilliant behavioural nudge socio psychologists managed to ensure some pretty inhuman and bizarre behaviours during the pandemic. I’m amazed they are unable to use those same skills to create a healthier society.

Unfortunately I can think of no positive reasons for them not to do so.

To answer your original question OP...as >13k people die of cancer in the UK each month and then I'd say, most people would tolerate a few thousand dying of covid every month, at least in winter.

I’m amazed they are unable to use those same skills to create a healthier society

Because when you use fear to manipulate behaviour then the effect is temporary. Most humans adapt to threat really quickly and adopt strategies to circumvent the fear response to survive. You can't keep pushing the same trigger to sustain the response it will only offer diminishing returns.

@FourTeaFallOut

I’m amazed they are unable to use those same skills to create a healthier society

Because when you use fear to manipulate behaviour then the effect is temporary. Most humans adapt to threat really quickly and adopt strategies to circumvent the fear response to survive. You can't keep pushing the same trigger to sustain the response it will only offer diminishing returns.

Do they need to use fear? Humans respond well to rewards too (hence addiction to artificial sweeteners etc).

I’m sure the genius psychologist could come up with a system that rewarded healthy lifestyles.

I don't think like our current government.

The idea of our Prime Minister saying that 50,000 people could be set to die as a result of his covid policies before he would change course boggles my mind.

But I have a life.

And I try and make plans.

So I try to understand how our government thinks.

I can't ask them questions.

But I can ask people with similar viewpoints on the internet.

The Mumsnet covid board has the highest concentration of that "living with covid" viewpoint anywhere I go on the internet

So I asked.

In the hope that some of you would have a line beyond which you'd be uncomfortable with the avoidable deaths of British people from a preventable disease.

Because from that I would try to work out when the Tory faithful would get restless, when our populist PM would implement Plan B, and when that fails because it will be too little too late as always, I would expect the next lockdown to be called.

So thank you if you gave a number, I'm not making Christmas plans.

Or New Year plans

Or Valentines Day plans.

I don't think like our current government.

The idea of our Prime Minister saying that 50,000 people could be set to die as a result of his covid policies before he would change course boggles my mind.

But I have a life.

And I try and make plans.

So I try to understand how our government thinks.

I can't ask them questions.

But I can ask people with similar viewpoints on the internet.

The Mumsnet covid board has the highest concentration of that "living with covid" viewpoint anywhere I go on the internet

So I asked.

In the hope that some of you would have a line beyond which you'd be uncomfortable with the avoidable deaths of British people from a preventable disease.

Because from that I would try to work out when the Tory faithful would get restless, when our populist PM would implement Plan B, and when that fails because it will be too little too late as always, I would expect the next lockdown to be called.

So thank you if you gave a number, I'm not making Christmas plans.

Or New Year plans

Or Valentines Day plans.

I'm not sure if positive reinforcement would be as successful as the strategies used to keep people compliant with lockdown restrictions.

I mean, most people can't even be arsed to use their own gym memberships. You'd need something pretty spectacular.