What is the point of the 12-15 vaccinations?

[loveandroses]

I am 100% pro vaccination and we should all get double vaccinated as soon as possible if we haven't already. But there is something about the 12-15 vaccination programme that is confusing me.

The UK scientific view as I understand it is that there is marginals health benefit (any benefit is good) but that the larger benefit will be to stop educational disruption. From a scientific point of view, how does this make sense?

I thought (please correct me if I am wrong) that with the delta variant and one dose there was very little decrease in infection but more (although not that much) decrease in illness. If the children are infected they can't go to school even if they are not ill so how does this help?

I do think it’s worth weighing up risk vaccine v Covid but thinking about it we have been left a bit in the dark.

Yep @MarshaBradyo I had a rant about this on a similar thread. There’s been no useful, clear information given to parents that explains why the MHRA approved the vaccine and JCVI didn’t, then the CMO did.

Or the fact that the JCVI not recommending the vaccine doesn’t mean it’s “dangerous”. I can’t understand how the CMO or PHE didn’t make sure there was a clear, accessible campaign explaining the decision to parents, and fact checking common misconceptions.

Beware True it could have been better.

I haven’t heard anyone in public talk about bad outcomes from Covid actually for dc (JCVI not really and CMO disruption impact on mh which I have been on about for ages ;)

And I know that people on here have had a really difficult time with their dc so it makes it hard to dismiss.

Yes, the communication has been a public health nightmare. If you were a doctor explaining your rationale for medical decision-making to a single patient, you wouldn't do it like this.

Neither (wrt people formerly shielding) would you tell people they had to hide away from the outside world for months at a time, repeatedly, and then a very short time later tell them "right, more or less go back to where you were".

There is a narrative by which people make sense of actual or potential illness and its treatment or prevention, and doctors need to aid rather than confuse comprehension of the issues.

10% of one of my kids year group have tested positive in the last 2 weeks, so im jumping at the chance for my kids to be vaccinated. The point being is that we all need to be vaccinated and im going to take whats on offer, whether its the optimum or not

It's not going to be long until it's Xmas and the kids are all mixing with their grandparents

One jab is better than no jab for my DD imho

The point is ££££££££ - anyone who cannot see this is as naive as they come.

Something odd about all this.

• We were way ahead of rest of world on getting the population vaccinated, now we’re behind EU and much of America.

• The government cancelled their order of the ‘made in Scotland’ French vaccine, I suspect for political reasons, dunno.

• No vaccine centres seem to be doing Astra Zeneca anymore.

• Supply of Pfizer can’t be unlimited, perhaps this is why they aren’t offering children two jabs.

Supply problems?? Policy indecision? Incompetence? I don’t know. But covid is ripping through schools, still mutating, and winter is coming. They need to sort this out.

The point being is that we all need to be vaccinated

Why? Many people are already immune and for most people this is a mild illness.

@bumbleymummy That’s true for a lot of diseases we vaccinate against. Without the vaccine, plenty of kids will catch flu, for example, and recover. Some will be hospitalised, a small number may die.

Have a read of the links I posted above about COVID complications and MIS-C in children, and the consequences of that. Now remember that covid can affect a small number kids badly even if they don’t have underlying conditions.

How do you know who to vaccinate? It doesn’t just affect the elderly, or the immune compromised. So do you vaccinate everyone, or do you just let some kids die? Or have long term heart problems? Organ damage?

Personally, I’m going to trust medical science, not blind stupid luck.

@Lesserspottedmama
Do you mean that vaccination was not clearly promoted for children because it would be cheaper for them to catch covid?

It's not impossible that some part of the government thinking was that short sighted, although the costs could be very great to children of getting ill in exam years (and possibly having symptoms that continue for longer than that). And of course there is a tiny risk of very severe adverse consequences of children catching covid.

@bumbleymummy

For some people this is a mild illness. Mild has however included people with lips turning blue at home, hasn't it?

A few people do die.

A fair number of people have severe symptoms that persist.

And it appears that more people will be severely ill if they catch covid and flu together.

The clear medical advice is to get vaccinated if you can.

@bumbleymummy

The point being is that we all need to be vaccinated

Why? Many people are already immune and for most people this is a mild illness.

Have you been able to get antibody testing then, because I havent!!

We all need to develop immunity because although it is often a mild illness, its also commonly a killer and leads to long term disabilities. Its a pandemic, hence everyone having lockdown after lockdown. Hadnt you heard?
I dont want more lockdowns. Vaccination significantly reduces infection and transmission and much reduces chance of serious illness, so the more people who get vaccinated the safer we all are.
Its easier and better to vaccinate people even if they have natural immunity, than faff around with antibody testing first.

No idea why some people are being so weird about a vaccination.

Its a pandemic, hence everyone having lockdown after lockdown. Hadnt you heard?
I dont want more lockdowns

Well lockdowns don’t work so ….. yeah we shouldn’t have them

Vaccination significantly reduces infection and transmission and much reduces chance of serious illness, so the more people who get vaccinated the safer we all are

It’s more important to reach the over 50s yet to be vaccinated and the obese/unhealthy over 40s then to try getting everyone vaxxed. Targeted approach will yield better results than trying to vaxx young adults

Antibody testing is important tool to reach those who haven’t got the vaxx—if they see they don’t have antibodies Im sure they’d give more serious thought to vaccination.

And if they do have antibodies nobody needs to worry about them anymore anyway

@UsedUpUsername

*Its a pandemic, hence everyone having lockdown after lockdown. Hadnt you heard? I dont want more lockdowns*

Well lockdowns don’t work so ….. yeah we shouldn’t have them

Vaccination significantly reduces infection and transmission and much reduces chance of serious illness, so the more people who get vaccinated the safer we all are

It’s more important to reach the over 50s yet to be vaccinated and the obese/unhealthy over 40s then to try getting everyone vaxxed. Targeted approach will yield better results than trying to vaxx young adults

Antibody testing is important tool to reach those who haven’t got the vaxx—if they see they don’t have antibodies Im sure they’d give more serious thought to vaccination.

And if they do have antibodies nobody needs to worry about them anymore anyway

If over 50,s and obese over 40,s havent been vaccinated, surely that will be because they have refused? Personally i think the more people (including 12-15) that are vaccinated, the better it will be for everyone, but its not mandatory people have the right to refuse if they wish.

[quote BewareTheLibrarians]@bumbleymummy That’s true for a lot of diseases we vaccinate against. Without the vaccine, plenty of kids will catch flu, for example, and recover. Some will be hospitalised, a small number may die.

Have a read of the links I posted above about COVID complications and MIS-C in children, and the consequences of that. Now remember that covid can affect a small number kids badly even if they don’t have underlying conditions.

How do you know who to vaccinate? It doesn’t just affect the elderly, or the immune compromised. So do you vaccinate everyone, or do you just let some kids die? Or have long term heart problems? Organ damage?

Personally, I’m going to trust medical science, not blind stupid luck.[/quote]
Yes, and we don’t say ‘we all need to be vaccinated against flu’ do we?

Yes, I’ve read articles about MIS-C before. It’s not like the vaccine is completely risk free though and there is ‘considerable uncertainty regarding the magnitude of the potential harms’ (JCVI statement). Why take that risk when the likelihood is that a young person will not be seriously ill with the virus? Why take the risk when the majority are already immune after having the virus with no ill effects? Why not offer antibody tests so that we have a better idea of how many children are not currently already protected?

@branleuse reduce serious illness, yes, reducing infection and transmission, no, not so much.

If over 50,s and obese over 40,s havent been vaccinated, surely that will be because they have refused?

Yes, but since they are the ones dying … it is the group we should persuade. Many are hesitant, not always against. I think antibody testing might give them a tool to make another decision, particularly if they are given fair, unbiased statistics.
Obesity, for one, is one of the major risk factors other than age (which is the primary)

Personally i think the more people (including 12-15) that are vaccinated, the better it will be for everyone, but its not mandatory people have the right to refuse if they wish

I don’t think there’a a lot of upside for getting healthy kids vaxxed unless they are immunocompromised or live with someone who is. Schools are not major driver of transmission and teachers should be vaxxed themselves if they are worried.

@UsedUpUsername I agree. I don’t think enough people are aware that being overweight or obese puts them at higher risk. (Or perhaps they’re just in denial about their weight?)

@bumbleymummy I must be imagining the flu vaccination programmes in schools, for the elderly, for people who work in healthcare, and private companies who provide access to flu vaccination for employees? You’d think I’d daydream about far more important things than that.

Anyway. This thread is about vaccinating children. Who also receive the flu vaccine at school. Which is strongly recommended, for the reasons I outlined in my last post.

The adverse reactions after the vaccine are rarer than adverse effects after covid. Again, see the links in my previous post.

It doesn’t make any sense to me to be so scared of a rare side effect after a vaccine (remembering that cases of myocarditis after the vaccine tend to be mild and resolve without medical intervention) but so blasé about an illness known to cause organ/vascular damage even after mild cases.

And yet again, on this thread, we see the damage of the lack of clarity around the JCVI’s message.

[quote bumbleymummy]@UsedUpUsername I agree. I don’t think enough people are aware that being overweight or obese puts them at higher risk. (Or perhaps they’re just in denial about their weight?)[/quote]
Why are you so obsessed with people and their weight? Do you bang on about it IRL?

[quote bumbleymummy]@UsedUpUsername I agree. I don’t think enough people are aware that being overweight or obese puts them at higher risk. (Or perhaps they’re just in denial about their weight?)[/quote]
While obesity does increase your risk, being skinny and having no underlying conditions didn’t protect my son from covid, Mis-c, heart problems.

It’s not a clear cut virus that only affects certain groups, as much as that would make you feel safer/morally superior.

The adverse reactions after the vaccine are rarer than adverse effects after covid. Again, see the links in my previous post

Your links didn’t address this in the age group? Didn’t it give a generalized idea of the risk?

Schools are not major driver of transmission

What the logic here? Kids can catch it from each other hanging around outside school hours, but can’t possibly catch it when sitting next to each other in a classroom/lunchtime/playing together at break time?

If schools aren’t drivers of transmission, why did rates in school age children noticeably rise in the weeks after schools returned? I’ve attached the UKHSA case rates.

While obesity does increase your risk, being skinny and having no underlying conditions didn’t protect my son from covid, Mis-c, heart problems

Risk is not spread evenly among the population, as you know. An elderly, obese man is at magnitudes more risk than a young boy. Yet, we’ve read news reports of people 100+ years old that survived COViD with no issues. They are outliers.

It’s not a clear cut virus that only affects certain groups, as much as that would make you feel safer/morally superior

I don’t understand your point here. Morally superior? Catching COVID is not about morality?

It’s a fact that obesity is a primary risk factor. People should know that so they can make a better decision for themselves.

@UsedUpUsername Can you provide any evidence that adverse effects post vaccine are more common that adverse effects after covid?

My links gave information that you asked for (I.e. risks of organ damage after covid.) You can extrapolate from the cases in those links that adverse reactions after covid are happening more often after covid infections than after vaccines. You can also look at the ONS data on long covid in children vs adverse reaction to vaccines (and real adverse reactions, not the discredited VAERS quoting study.)