Are people no longer bothered by Covid….?

[Iwannabelikeyouohh]

Is anyone actually bothered about Covid?
From places I’ve been recently, everyone is just “normal”

I took my son to a toddler class this morning.

I walked in wearing my mask. Room full of 19 other adults and their toddlers.

Not one single adult had a mask on (expect me)
There was no distancing in the class.
It was as normal as normal can be.

I joined a new slimming class tonight.

Again I walked in wearing a mask. No one else had one on.
All chairs pushed up together, people sat close.

I don’t get it.

How can we go from distancing, mask wearing, avoiding people on walks (which is exactly what it was like) to nothing….

Marsha I lived in Melbourne and Sydney too! And Hong Kong, Phnomh Penh and Thailand and spent protracted periods on projects in India and Malaysia . Basically enough to more that we have more in common than divides us.

enough to more that we have more in common than divides us.

This I can go with

Basically enough to more that we have more in common than divides us

Well yeah, and that’s kind of my my point too. We’re not the feckless, selfish, horrific nation that many on here seem to think.

Well from equally high rates earlier in the year, we now have a rate of about 50 cases per 100,000 and most other European countries have rates around 5 per 100,000 so there's clearly SOMETHING that other countries are doing right to keep case rates under control that we're doing wrong here...

@Bramshott

Well from equally high rates earlier in the year, we now have a rate of about 50 cases per 100,000 and most other European countries have rates around 5 per 100,000 so there's clearly SOMETHING that other countries are doing right to keep case rates under control that we're doing wrong here...

Yes, of course. But is that the selfishness of the general public, or the fault of the government response?

@Bramshott

Well from equally high rates earlier in the year, we now have a rate of about 50 cases per 100,000 and most other European countries have rates around 5 per 100,000 so there's clearly SOMETHING that other countries are doing right to keep case rates under control that we're doing wrong here...

Better off to measure by hospitalisation rate - which is currently falling which is very good.

But yes agree again it’s not correct to say selfishness is any more prevalent here.

so there's clearly SOMETHING that other countries are doing right to keep case rates under control that we're doing wrong here...

Well certainly our rates locally here were kicked off by not just allowing all the 16 year olds to congregate in a drunken binge in Newquay but to lay on a 58000 people festival there, followed by Reading and Leeds and for many who went to come back with Covid and then take it to bars etc, Then for them to go back to school unmasked, largely unvaccinated and with inadequate ventilation and pass it around each other further and to teachers and families. Libertarianism innit….

I'd say mainly government response, but as the government message at the moment seems to be "nothing to see here, it's all over, everyone can go back to normal" it's not surprising that people's behaviour has responded to that.

I do get that hospitalisations are low which is great, but presumably they'd be even lower if we had a tenth of the number of cases...

@Bramshott

I'd say mainly government response, but as the government message at the moment seems to be "nothing to see here, it's all over, everyone can go back to normal" it's not surprising that people's behaviour has responded to that.

I do get that hospitalisations are low which is great, but presumably they'd be even lower if we had a tenth of the number of cases...

They would but when would they happen instead?

Delaying to winter isn’t good as we’ll have flu.

I get why it’s higher now to avoid that. You could keep going with masks / restrictions etc beyond that to get to one tenth but how long would you have it in place for?

@Emilyontmoor

Just a few points:

1. The UK doesn't have one of the worst death and infection rates in the world. We don't even have the worst in Europe. If you are genuinely interested in this, The Economist tracks excess deaths which most scientists have said from the start of the pandemic will be the best way to work out statistics (given that all countries report deaths differently, some countries test more than others etc). Here is a link -

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiOtMbA7bDzAhVkoFwKHdrFAIwQFnoECCEQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.economist.com%2Fgraphic-detail%2Fcoronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker&usg=AOvVaw1IZ7Z3_adO2anZrORjYZj-

1. "We could only respond to what was communicated to us" - I do think people need to take personal responsibility to some extent here. The gov.uk website publishes absolutely everything the government has been given by SAGE and all decisions and advice are clearly on their website. I remember last year after universities went back and England had tiers, some students were interviewed and were complaining that it was so complicated to know what zone they were in and what the rules are. I honestly think if a student cannot google "What tier is X in" and "What are tier X rules" then they are possible not university material. In case you want it, here is a link -

www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiu3cf29bDzAhXRTsAKHZavC0QQFnoECAcQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fcoronavirus&usg=AOvVaw1FHjpl_s6FgQfuZ_YZo8Nu

1. Despite 4 different parties being in charge (Labour in Wales, SNP in Scotland, DUP in Northern Ireland and Conservatives in England) we've ended up in a very similar position. Because, although health is a devolved matter, restrictions etc were very similar. And the messaging was difficult for all of them - do you remember all the posts about what was "essential" in a Welsh supermarket? I'm all for a bit of moaning about politicians but I think we need to stop being so lazy about it.

1. "Not patronising three word slogans". I wish the slogan thing had been confined to the UK. Every time we saw press coverage from other countries I would have to use google translate to work out what theirs meant. For a while the French politicians had "Sauvez des vies, restez prudents" on their lecterns. In Hong Kong they had "Together we fight the virus". The "Stay at Home. Protect the NHS. Save Lives" was formulated by a Kiwi advisor who was quite taken with Jacinda Ahern's "Stay at Home. Save Lives" slogan.

1. "Yet there were supposed to be only a few cases, that was the government gaslighting on a massive scale". Or, the government didn't know how many cases there were because (a) there weren't any tests, (b) covid was much more widespread outside China than anyone realised, (c) China didn't share what was going on, (d) other European countries were slow to sort themselves out which led to increase in spread here (eg Austria - remember the Ischgl superspreader ski week which they covered up).

I think a covid enquiry will be a really good basis for learning how to deal with pandemics in the future. And to highlight what we did badly and what we did well. And we did do some things well - took calculated risk in delaying 2nd doses, setting up vaccine task force, being one of few countries in the world to massively help the whole world in tracking variants etc.

Sorry to rant. I'm just quite fed up with the government. I'm also quite fed up with everyone just repeating whatever they hear on the news or stating things as "fact" when they aren't. Mostly I'm quite fed up with the virus!

Patrick the fox
Good post

I think some people find it comforting to attribute as much as possible to human error, rather than simply acknowledge that this is a shit situation nature has thrown at us.

So the 'if only the government had done X,Y, Z' and 'if only people weren't so selfish' is a way of deflecting from the fact that life is sometimes utterly shit.

That's not to say the UK didn't clearly make mistakes in their response, of course they did. But some very important things were well handled (the vaccine task force, the rollout) and there's a mindset among certain posters on here that simply won't acknowledge this.

There were SO many variables impacting how countries were affected and how they handled it. Geographical, cultural, legal, societal, impact of past infection, the state of various health services, general health of the nation, past experiences with China, age of population, incidence of co-morbidities in population, extent of planning for events like these, pharmaceutical presence, timings of infection. I could go on and on.

So yes, I'd like to see a global enquiry, but it would have to take into account all these factors. There absolutely wasn't a one size fits all approach to handling Covid and ultimately better results came from working to individual nations strengths rather than against them.

For example, it probably should have been obvious that given their lack of experience with such systems and the legal barriers in place, European countries would struggle with implementing a decent Track and Trace system, compared to say South Korea.

Equally, vaccine development and rollout is something that countries like the UK were well positioned to do. And they did that.

The picture is very complicated and changed across all stages of the pandemic. Almost every country struggled at various points.

Thanks Patrick

That is an interesting table of excess deaths but I still stand by my view that as a first world country with what prior to the pandemic were rated as some of the best public health resources in the world (in comparison to countries who have done much better) we are still one of the worst. I assume Malaysia and some other asian countries will actually no longer be in that lower part of the table since they have struggled with Delta.

I can well believe that Hong Kong pounced on the three word slogan trend but the fact remains that what you might call their legacy communications strategy, developed during SARS , was very good at keeping you informed of where the virus was (down to building level) where it originated (at plane seat level ) and the nature of infection control required by what they were uncovering about virus transmission. I think they are referring to the emphasis on surface transmission now in derogatory terms because of the way public health systems have clung to it but at the start of the SARS it was an early win, and they quickly detected that extensive transmission within a couple of tower blocks was not as it appeared aerosol but also from surfaces contaminated by faecal matter sucked in from soil pipes. You have never seen so much scaffolding go up buildings (including our own) in such a short time. All this, including the quick build up of testing tracing and quarantine achieved with existing public health resources that quickly went from dithering in the early days to proactive within three weeks made you feel informed and safe.

Actually the UK government could have known how widespread the virus was outside China if they had listened to Taiwan, and acted as Hong Kong and South Korea did. Of course WHO were actively ignoring Taiwan for their own political reasons but that did not mean we had to. They also had the details of the virus, infectivity and mortality, printed in the Lancet in January plus a lot more info coming out of China on informal networks that MI5 must have picked up. In India in January we were being told of confirmed cases in Kerala. It would not have been hard to take notice of all that international noise instead of Boris Johnson pontificating in February "when there is a risk that new diseases such as coronavirus will trigger a panic and a desire for market segregation that go beyond what is medically rational to the point of doing real and unnecessary economic damage, then at that moment humanity needs some government somewhere that is willing at least to make the case powerfully for freedom of exchange, some country ready to take off its Clark Kent spectacles and leap into the phone booth and emerge with its cloak flowing as the supercharged champion, of the right of the populations of the earth to buy and sell freely among each other." By the beginning of March almost everyone in London knew someone with a Covid like illness even if we were not yet let in on the information that had come out of China about loss of taste and smell, and non typical symptoms like a runny nose(how it manifested itself in our house - we later tested positive for antibodies). Hancock actually later admitted that, yet still they dithered.

The Crick initiative set up to make sure all its expert scientists could contribute to keeping hospitals safe instead of doing nothing on furlough as they were elsewhere, was testing North London hospitals, GOSH and the Marsden staff and getting them back on the wards from early March, with only the old machines the government had not requisitioned for their private labs. If they had got all the Scientists running the PCR machines in all the public labs around the country they could have been testing on a much larger scale much earlier, and the Crick had an early protocol for securing the chemical brew required and process. In fact if the Crick had had any actual government funding and access to more machines which the government were requisitioning and buying up for lighthouse labs (that were losing expert staff because they were unsafe and ignoring their expertise) in the first nine months instead of Cancer Research UK having to foot the bill it would have been even more successful sooner. Our local hospital not only had its own lab running PRC tests for staff and patients by mid March (prior to cancelling all the operations) but they used their sexual health and local public health teams to carry out tracing. The vaccine programme shows what our NHS and public sector could achieve when given the chance.

It was exceptionalism that led the government to ignore all this intelligence and its existing resources in favour of trying first herd immunity and then be one of the few countries in the world to be guided by dogma into handing test trace and isolate, the most important part of its public health strategy, to the private sector who failed consistently to achieve metrics of satisfactory performance .

I hope you can see that my view of the government role does originate with facts learnt from many sources including personal experience and not just the media. Anyway I think we both agree all this should come out in a public enquiry so that blame and credit goes where it should.

Aren't we all, but actually from what our Hong Kong GP who had previously worked as an epidemiologist during the HIV pandemic said not only had we got off lightly with SARS but we have got off lightly this time too. It could actually, and still might, be worse.

Of course, a global pandemic would have a widespread impact.

That doesn't mean our government can't be held accountable for local issues where there clearly has been incompetence (lots of examples) or corruption (giving hugely lucrative contracts to cronies, which then are not well fulfilled).

@herecomesthsun Not sure if that was directed at me? I don't think anyone suggested any government should not be accountable?

Directed at Boris & co.

There is a line of thought that runs "Oh, it's all the fault of the virus, so you can't criticise the government for their choices"

and also the idea that criticising the government's choices is somehow unpatriotic

I think it's fine to discuss the choices that have been made, and, in fact, taking an informed interest is the right thing to do as citizens.

I’m all for a public enquiry and discussion but I don’t always agree with various takes on it

Esp around early days and SAGE advice which is well documented in minutes

Plus didn’t a legal action happen already and NAS look into stuff

Not suggesting it’s enough but remember people getting excited about Good Law Project not sure what happened

For example, it probably should have been obvious that given their lack of experience with such systems and the legal barriers in place, European countries would struggle with implementing a decent Track and Trace system, compared to say South Korea.

Why? European countries did have experience of track and trace from previous pandemics both in Europe and elsewhere, we had public health officers trained in them, just not enough at the start of the pandemic. As countless public health officers in local government have pointed out this was a job better done with local knowledge and boots on the ground and had they had the funding sent their way that was given to Dido they would have been able to make a better contribution with greater local trust and compliance. Test, track and trace is not rocket science, it is just a matter of sound logistics and process. Dido’s organisation tried to run it with factory and call centre management processes with associated performance targets and measures that failed to anticipate or measure what actually mattered in terms of effectiveness, the need for smooth processes to transmit data to third parties such as the NHS and local government (suggestions they needed to bring in data scientists were ignored) and above all reaching contacts and persuading them to isolate. Private sector businesses long ago stopped being operations led, let alone an organisation that was involved in a project aiming to influence human behaviour:

Germany actually put into place a system using local public health and medical teams which worked well in the first wave until it was overwhelmed by new variants. South Korea relied on public health resources to do the bulk of the legwork. South Korea did pass a law during the MERS out break to enable them to track people but that turned out to have flaws and ran into public resistance as a result. It seems to have been obvious to other countries with different cultures that a remote voice on a phone reading through a script was going to be less effective than someone from your local area turning up on your doorstep and engaging you as an individual in a community project, whilst offering you the means to do so (an important aspect of Korea’s success. )

Marsha The Good Law Project is still plugging away taking cases through the courts but it takes resources to put in the FOI requests and amass the evidence in the face of government obfuscation.

Outside the courts though what hope is there when the government lacks all integrity and probity and has railroaded through all our conventions and practises designed to enable good governance taking advantage of the fact that so much relies on the will of the politicians to maintain, not destroy them. .

"I live in London, 1.5 million of us had had Covid by June 2020 mostly in March before lockdown. "

Interesting claim as London has had fewer than 1.1 million test positive to date. We all know that cases were undercounted in the early months due to lack of testing, but saying 0.4 million more people had had Covid in the first few months than tested positive after about 19 months is pure speculation.

Re compliance and Test and Trace in Korea, an acquaintance took himself off their early in 2020 as he was so impressed by their approach. He was less impressed to find out that on arrival he had to inform the authorities of his mobile phone and credit card details, like the locals, so that his whereabouts was always known. Then, if he was somewhere where some who tested positive had been, he had to go for an immediate test and, if positive, had to go straight to a secure medical facility, of their choosing, without going home to grab belongings (or sort out childcare etc had that been an issue). Probably very effective infection control, but how acceptable would people find it?

@amicissimma

I'm guessing those figures can from antibody surveys rather than speculation.

Yes it's old news now. People are still catching it but mild and insignificant for the vast majority so no more anxiety amongst the vaccinated.

He was less impressed to find out that on arrival he had to inform the authorities of his mobile phone and credit card details, like the locals, so that his whereabouts was always known.

Exactly. South Korea have no GDPR laws, and data can be commandeered for government purposes. Their track and trace system had access to bank card, mobile data and CCTV footage to trace people. They were also able to post geo locations of these who tested positive.

None of this is legal in the U.K., let alone seen as socially acceptable to do.

Yes it's old news now.

🤣