Is it ok we are just letting our kids get Covid?

[Moonopoly]

DD5 has just tested positive for Covid. There have been several cases in her Year 1 class but school remains the same. Under the old rules the ‘bubble’ would have closed and she would perhaps have stood some chance of not getting it.
Is it ok that we are letting the government pursue a herd immunity policy with a novel virus amongst our kids?
We seem to be the only country doing this?

Another twitter thread exploring the connections between HART and U4F, and the dodgy messaging they've been trying to get through the backdoor of parliament.

Quote from Clare Craig - "I think we need to seed the thought that vaccines cause COVID"

etc etc

twitter.com/Zubhaque/status/1439705665073827840

It really is abhorrent.

oops - full thread:

twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1439686701480304647

@Moonopoly parents have been catching covid from their kids for 18 months. Hopefully in this wave they're vaccinated and its milder for them than it was for those of us who caught it in earlier waves. I really don't understand the obsession with Us4them etc. A large number of parents like me would like their children to live as normally as possible and we accept that our kids are at some point likely to catch covid. Probably we don't really like it but we realise it's a small risk and accept it. The risk will equally apply in other countries if they do not vaccinate children regardless of how well you think they are currently 'performing'. I can express this view without being Us4them, tory, anti vax or whatever other labelling you want to throw out.

[quote Faffinator]@Moonopoly parents have been catching covid from their kids for 18 months. Hopefully in this wave they're vaccinated and its milder for them than it was for those of us who caught it in earlier waves. I really don't understand the obsession with Us4them etc. A large number of parents like me would like their children to live as normally as possible and we accept that our kids are at some point likely to catch covid. Probably we don't really like it but we realise it's a small risk and accept it. The risk will equally apply in other countries if they do not vaccinate children regardless of how well you think they are currently 'performing'. I can express this view without being Us4them, tory, anti vax or whatever other labelling you want to throw out.[/quote]
I don't think you understand that these groups have been spreading misinformation to discourage mask wearing, lockdowns and vaccination (in adults and children), alongside generally minimising the impact of coronavirus, for the last 18 months.

Everyone wants children to be able to live as normally as possible and not be impacted by coronavirus, but realistically this requires some level of restriction in order to prevent disruption to their lives and education. This isn't what these groups are promoting.

In addition they want to remove the choice of vaccination to 12-15 year olds when it clearly offers some benefits. The CMOs have advised teens should be offered it (and turn it down if not keen), and yet they continue to disrupt.

@riveted1 but I just don’t agree with you. I don’t think restrictions prevent disruption to children’s lives and education , to the contrary they are what causes that disruption. And I don’t think covid is any more dangerous to children than plenty of other illnesses and risks that we all live with without restrictions. The evidence support this- it’s not misinformation or a conspiracy theory. And I’m not right wing or anti vax or anything of the sort.

It's not a small risk of them catching it though is it? Addressing ventilation for example - that's not disruptive and is something other countries have put in place. Most parents wouldn't quibble that. There are thousands of kids still suffering well over a year on. What I personally despise about us4them is they are linked to some very unsavoury groups and advocate harmful policies. These policies don't help keep schools open. As for infection, Pearson actually expressed pleasure that so many young, healthy people caught covid at festivals. That is messed up and makes me sick to my stomach that someone can express pleasure over that - how does that mass spread help health or the economy? Who says things like that?

Sorry, hadn't refreshed. Directed at poster asking why people were concerned with us4them.

[quote Bizawit]@riveted1 but I just don’t agree with you. I don’t think restrictions prevent disruption to children’s lives and education , to the contrary they are what causes that disruption. And I don’t think covid is any more dangerous to children than plenty of other illnesses and risks that we all live with without restrictions. The evidence support this- it’s not misinformation or a conspiracy theory. And I’m not right wing or anti vax or anything of the sort.[/quote]
@Bizawit

If all restrictions were removed at once and no teens vaccinated, it would likely to disastrous in terms of the numbers. And the problem is that letting it get to that level (to the point where even the most COVID-denying of people agree there's an issue) is that it requires a huge effort to get it back under control, with excess death and disability that could be prevented.

This isn't specifically about coronavirus itself being harmful to children/teens (although the evidence does suggest that for 12-15 years it is safer to be vaccinated that not), but the fact that living in an uncontrolled pandemic is harmful to them due to the inevitable disruption to services, education and healthcare.

When I used the term misinformation I was specifically referring the claims these groups make about vaccines, COVID, masks and the rest, which are not based in robust science.

If all restrictions were removed at once and no teens vaccinated, it would likely to disastrous in terms of the numbers

This is a projection, not a statement of fact. It is unknown and disputed. There’s plenty of evidence that suggests otherwise.

although the evidence does suggest that for 12-15 years it is safer to be vaccinated that not

According to our own scientific, regulatory body on vaccines the benefits are likely so marginal , and poorly evidenced, that they don’t justify a vaccine programme for otherwise health teens.

When I used the term misinformation I was specifically referring the claims these groups make about vaccines, COVID, masks and the rest, which are not based in robust science

Could you provide an example? The evidence on masks (cloth masks in real world settings, especially for children) is disputed and patchy . I wasn’t aware these groups were generally anti vaccine.

I posted a twitter thread just above containing some of the misinformation that U4T/HART/PANDA/FLCCC have spread.

Other false claims have included that the vaccines cause ADE, that they can lead to cancer and prion disease, that vaccinated people are more likely to transmit coronavirus, that you are more likely to have severe symptoms if vaccinated, that all yellow card reports are causal (ie people dying after vaccination are those dying due to vaccination.)

The list goes on and on. It can all be found on the twitter timelines of their members pages, or reports that they have released to the public.

@beentoldcomputersaysno

It's not a small risk of them catching it though is it? Addressing ventilation for example - that's not disruptive and is something other countries have put in place. Most parents wouldn't quibble that. There are thousands of kids still suffering well over a year on. What I personally despise about us4them is they are linked to some very unsavoury groups and advocate harmful policies. These policies don't help keep schools open. As for infection, Pearson actually expressed pleasure that so many young, healthy people caught covid at festivals. That is messed up and makes me sick to my stomach that someone can express pleasure over that - how does that mass spread help health or the economy? Who says things like that?

I don’t imagine anyone is ideologically opposed to better ventilation in schools, surely this is an issue of budget/ logistics/ resources/ infrastructure? We can’t just snap our fingers and have improved ventilation in schools, obviously improved ventilation would be ideal.

false claims have included that the vaccines cause ADE, that they can lead to cancer and prion disease, that vaccinated people are more likely to transmit coronavirus, that you are more likely to have severe symptoms if vaccinated

I’ll have a look through the thread, but I would be totally shocked if HART had said any of these things. Maybe I am wrong..

But who is listening to Us4them really? I've only ever heard of them on here! It's perfectly possible that the majority of those who don't agree with you are sane and moderate people who don't see danger everywhere or who have modified their covid anxiety as time has gone on, weighing up noncovid damage to health and wellbeing. @riveted1 your post reads like something from 12 months ago. With the level of vaccine take up and pre existing immunity we have I just don't recognise any truth in the picture you're painting.

Oh it’s Deepti Gurdasani, she posts constant , malicious crap against anyone who disagrees with her, and she’s a total fanatic.

although the evidence does suggest that for 12-15 years it is safer to be vaccinated than not

According to our own scientific, regulatory body on vaccines the benefits exceeded the risk on health grounds

According to our CMO and Secretary for Health the overall benefits of vaccination for 12-15s are clear

-When I used the term misinformation I was specifically referring to the claims these groups make about vaccines, COVID, masks and the rest, which are not based in robust science

-Could you provide an example?

From twitter

twitter.com/jneill/status/1439356523365519361/photo/1

"Dr Clare Craig, U4T signatory, wants to "seed the thought the vaccines cause COVID"."

I'd say that's not based in robust science x

Plus I agree on ventilation who wouldn't? I work in a sixth form college that has actually improved ventilation to all the classrooms over the summer. But as an intervention it's not going to prevent covid in schools here or anywhere.

@Bizawit

false claims have included that the vaccines cause ADE, that they can lead to cancer and prion disease, that vaccinated people are more likely to transmit coronavirus, that you are more likely to have severe symptoms if vaccinated

I’ll have a look through the thread, but I would be totally shocked if HART had said any of these things. Maybe I am wrong..

I can assure you that members of HART have made all of those claims, I wouldn't have listed them if I hadn't seen them first hand from the "publications" they have released and from their chat logs.

That twitter thread is an example of some of them - and yup from Deepti but it's not her opinion, it's literal screenshots of tweets from their members, of which the originals can be found on their members timelines.

@herecomesthsun I have no idea what that comment means, it’s an isolated remark , plucked out of its context-
Deepti is famous for that. Also i see no suggestion it represents the views of any organisation.
Personally I am skeptical of some of the stuff Dr Clare Craig posts on her personal Twitter.

Here's a load of their crap bundled into a letter and signed @Bizawit

www.hartgroup.org/open-letter-child-vaccination/

[quote Bizawit]@herecomesthsun I have no idea what that comment means, it’s an isolated remark , plucked out of its context-
Deepti is famous for that. Also i see no suggestion it represents the views of any organisation.
Personally I am skeptical of some of the stuff Dr Clare Craig posts on her personal Twitter.[/quote]
Clare Craig is part of HART and Us4them (and PANDA, and FLCCC given that they're all the same people..)

They are happy to represent her and let her speak for them. Not sure why a credible body would allow that. Note that Mike Yeadon is also heavily involved but they're careful to keep his name out of anything in the public domain.

@Faffinator

But who is listening to Us4them really? I've only ever heard of them on here! It's perfectly possible that the majority of those who don't agree with you are sane and moderate people who don't see danger everywhere or who have modified their covid anxiety as time has gone on, weighing up noncovid damage to health and wellbeing. *@riveted1* your post reads like something from 12 months ago. With the level of vaccine take up and pre existing immunity we have I just don't recognise any truth in the picture you're painting.

Who has been listening to them?

Boris Johnson (they have had access to private meetings with him

The JCVI - possibly (they were apparently writing to each committee member individually)

Lots of lobbying going on

also lawsuits (being at least considered against the MHRA)

and links with anti vaxxer protests targeting school - according to the screenshots

their founder gets a lot of inches in the Daily Telegraph

[quote Bizawit]@herecomesthsun I have no idea what that comment means, it’s an isolated remark , plucked out of its context-
Deepti is famous for that. Also i see no suggestion it represents the views of any organisation.
Personally I am skeptical of some of the stuff Dr Clare Craig posts on her personal Twitter.[/quote]
the idea that vaccines cause covid?

Seems a fairly simple (if completely scientifically misguided) idea

[quote riveted1]Here's a load of their crap bundled into a letter and signed @Bizawit

www.hartgroup.org/open-letter-child-vaccination/[/quote]
But I don’t see anything here that is lies and misinformation?

Personally I am in favour of giving teenagers , and families the choice, so I think it is the wrong call to appose a voluntary vaccination programme for 12-15 year olds, but that doesn’t mean what HART write here is unethical or wrong information. Just a different viewpoint.

I think this statement needs correcting : “No previously healthy child under the age of 15 died during the pandemic in the UK” (it doesn’t even make sense) but otherwise I can’t see any obvious falsities?

the idea that vaccines cause covid

I honestly couldn’t say if that’s what this statement means. As I say it’s an isolated remark , entirely plucked out of its context, that appears to be part of a broader conversation we have no sense of.

Deepti does this all the time to people on Twitter and it is disgusting behaviour IMO. She’s a bully. And a fanatic. ( Dr Clare Craig is also a fanatic from what I have seen).