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Is it ok we are just letting our kids get Covid?

495 replies

Moonopoly · 21/09/2021 10:39

DD5 has just tested positive for Covid. There have been several cases in her Year 1 class but school remains the same. Under the old rules the ‘bubble’ would have closed and she would perhaps have stood some chance of not getting it.
Is it ok that we are letting the government pursue a herd immunity policy with a novel virus amongst our kids?
We seem to be the only country doing this?

OP posts:
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7
herecomesthsun · 27/09/2021 16:08

@Bizawit

so the whole thing appears mis guided!

There is no coercion on children to be vaccinated

The vaccine is not still at the research stage, it has been given to millions of people worldwide, including millions of minors.

48 children at least have died after being infected with covid in the UK

It ignores the very real benefits to children of being in education and having less disruption and minimises potential long term adverse effects of covid, which seem likely to outweigh adverse effects of the vaccine.

And that is without considering vulnerable children and families (whom they ignore)

herecomesthsun · 27/09/2021 16:10

@Bizawit

the idea that vaccines cause covid

I honestly couldn’t say if that’s what this statement means. As I say it’s an isolated remark , entirely plucked out of its context, that appears to be part of a broader conversation we have no sense of.

Deepti does this all the time to people on Twitter and it is disgusting behaviour IMO. She’s a bully. And a fanatic. ( Dr Clare Craig is also a fanatic from what I have seen).

what is disgusting is planning a misinformation campaign in a pandemic

the statement appears to speak for itself and also appears in line with the other reported conversations from UFT/HART/ antivaxxer lobby

they could always explain themselves on twitter if being misrepresented as it is a public forum

Bizawit · 27/09/2021 16:15

[quote herecomesthsun]@Bizawit

so the whole thing appears mis guided!

There is no coercion on children to be vaccinated

The vaccine is not still at the research stage, it has been given to millions of people worldwide, including millions of minors.

48 children at least have died after being infected with covid in the UK

It ignores the very real benefits to children of being in education and having less disruption and minimises potential long term adverse effects of covid, which seem likely to outweigh adverse effects of the vaccine.

And that is without considering vulnerable children and families (whom they ignore)[/quote]
Many of these statements are (your) opinions and I have to say I have a different view on several of them. Having a different view doesn’t equate to spreading lies and misinformation.

48 children at least have died after being infected with covid in the UK

Yes, although this doesn’t actually contradict the statement in the letter. (Although I do think that one particular statement is slightly dodgy/ unclear).

Bizawit · 27/09/2021 16:17

Also they do mention vulnerable children.

Faffinator · 27/09/2021 16:18

@herecomesthsun you're overstating the role and influence of these groups so as to deny the possibility that there are sensible, sane, well informed and moderate people (not tory, not telegraph reading and not anti vax) who just don't agree with you.

VaguelyInteresting · 27/09/2021 16:25

TBH I’d rather my DS got it (again) now, than in the depths of winter when his asthma is typically not great. He sailed through last time (April 2020) so I’m not very worried. I have (mercifully mild) long covid (17 mths and counting), for context, and am double vaxxed.

Better ventilation in schools would be great, pandemic or not. I don’t know anyone who would argue with that.

If covid vax are offered for his age group I’m not sure what I’ll do (he’s 5) as the risk benefit analysis suggests the vaccine is the higher risk for his age, but if there’s a mutation down the line which makes it more dangerous for children, it may be beneficial for him to have had it sooner. He does have an annual flu vaccine so I’m by no means anti vaccine- just waiting for the science to offer a definitive reassuring answer for his age.

herecomesthsun · 27/09/2021 16:26

I think spreading misinformation in a pandemic is a significant problem - for example that covid is spread by the vaccines, since that is a convenient example.

riveted1 · 27/09/2021 16:30

@Bizawit

Not sure how you can't see the misinformation in the letter I linked.

the idea that vaccines cause covid

It means that vaccination can cause COVID infection. It's a risk with some live/attenuated vaccines, but definitely not with the ones we're using (as the groups well know)

No previously healthy child under the age of 15 died during the pandemic in the UK and admissions to hospital or intensive care are exceedingly rare1
This is untrue (first point) and misleading (second point).

As of 13th May, the MHRA22 has received a total of 224,544 adverse events, including 1,145 deaths in association with SARS-CoV-2 vaccines.
Misleading - at no point do they caution these events are not proven to be causal.

Most concerning with regard to possible vaccination of children, is that there have now been a number of deaths associated with vaccination reported to VAERS in the US,
Same as above - VAERS is equivalent to the yellow card scheme in the UK.

The vaccines are, therefore, currently experimental with only limited short-term and no long-term adult safety data available.
They are not experimental. Long time safety cannot exist if the time hasn't elapsed and there is no plausible mechanism by which vaccines could cause effects that only emerging after a long time period.

A recently published paper raised the possibility that mRNA COVID-19 vaccines could trigger prion-based, neurodegenerative disease30
Absolute bullshit - the reference is a load rambling from an anti-vaxxer with no basis in robust science.

herecomesthsun · 27/09/2021 16:33

You see, someone wanting to wait because they think the risk of covid to their child is fairly low - I can understand.

A campaign with links to anti vaxxers targeting schools and deliberately spreading misinformation about vaccines - hard to see how anyone reasonable could condone that.

Bizawit · 27/09/2021 17:24

[quote riveted1]@Bizawit

Not sure how you can't see the misinformation in the letter I linked.

the idea that vaccines cause covid

It means that vaccination can cause COVID infection. It's a risk with some live/attenuated vaccines, but definitely not with the ones we're using (as the groups well know)

No previously healthy child under the age of 15 died during the pandemic in the UK and admissions to hospital or intensive care are exceedingly rare1
This is untrue (first point) and misleading (second point).

As of 13th May, the MHRA22 has received a total of 224,544 adverse events, including 1,145 deaths in association with SARS-CoV-2 vaccines.
Misleading - at no point do they caution these events are not proven to be causal.

Most concerning with regard to possible vaccination of children, is that there have now been a number of deaths associated with vaccination reported to VAERS in the US,
Same as above - VAERS is equivalent to the yellow card scheme in the UK.

The vaccines are, therefore, currently experimental with only limited short-term and no long-term adult safety data available.
They are not experimental. Long time safety cannot exist if the time hasn't elapsed and there is no plausible mechanism by which vaccines could cause effects that only emerging after a long time period.

A recently published paper raised the possibility that mRNA COVID-19 vaccines could trigger prion-based, neurodegenerative disease30
Absolute bullshit - the reference is a load rambling from an anti-vaxxer with no basis in robust science.[/quote]
the idea that vaccines cause covid

I don’t know that this was what was being said. And I certainly don’t know that this is the view of Hart.

No previously healthy child under the age of 15 died during the pandemic in the UK and admissions to hospital or intensive care are exceedingly rare1
This is untrue (first point) and misleading (second point)

First point- I’m willing to believe it, but please point me to the data source which says how many under 15s with no underlying conditions died between March 2020- May 2021 , where covid was on the death certificate.

Second point - I disagree, admissions of children due to covid are very rare, and comparable/ less than other common viruses.

As of 13th May, the MHRA22 has received a total of 224,544 adverse events, including 1,145 deaths in association with SARS-CoV-2 vaccines.
Misleading - at no point do they caution these events are not proven to be causal*.

This statement doesn’t say that these events have been proven causal. It says they have been reported and are “associated” which is true.

Most concerning with regard to possible vaccination of children, is that there have now been a number of deaths associated with vaccination reported to VAERS in the US,
Same as above - VAERS is equivalent to the yellow card scheme in the UK*

Again at no point to they say these events are causal.

The vaccines are, therefore, currently experimental with only limited short-term and no long-term adult safety data available

Whether a treatment is experimental is a matter of judgement / contestation (see recent litigation around puberty blockers for trans kids). There are medications that have been around much longer than these, that are considered experimental. It is true that we have limited data on this vaccine, particularly long term. Nothing wrong with pointing that out. In fact it’s very important to do so. It would be irresponsible not to.

A recently published paper raised the possibility that mRNA COVID-19 vaccines could trigger prion-based, neurodegenerative disease30
Absolute bullshit - the reference is a load rambling from an anti-vaxxer with no basis in robust science

The paper may be bullshit. All they have done is cite it. Maybe this is ill advised, but it’s perfectly transparent.

pullingmyhairout2 · 27/09/2021 17:31

My daughter has it. Half her year are off with it. Loads from other years are off with it.
Yet I had to battle with her school for her to come home on Thursday unwell! Because a headache isn't a reason to go home!
Most of the covid cases round here have started with a headache including my son's in july.
It's never going to end if schools don't use some initiative in cases like this.

herecomesthsun · 27/09/2021 17:52

I would say it is misleading to describe medications for which we have data from millions of uses as "experimental".

We continue to obtain research data for many medicines in common use - that doesn't make them "experimental".

I think it is pretty irresponsible to describe them as such.

riveted1 · 27/09/2021 17:56

@herecomesthsun

I would say it is misleading to describe medications for which we have data from millions of uses as "experimental".

We continue to obtain research data for many medicines in common use - that doesn't make them "experimental".

I think it is pretty irresponsible to describe them as such.

Yes - this was a letter to teachers and schools signed by scientists and doctors.

To do this and allude to the other things I mentioned like all deaths associated with vaccines and that (untrue) idea that the vaccines can cause neurodegenerative disease is so deeply irresponsible.

It wouldn't pass peer review for these reasons which they well know.

duffeldaisy · 27/09/2021 18:10

The death rate of children in the UK is far higher than being quoted. If you follow TigressEllie on Twitter, she announced today that 8 under-19s have died from Covid this month alone until the 22nd (the figures are always delayed on the government website), and in total, 86 children have died. (England 80 Scotland 4 N.Ireland 2)

MarshaBradyo · 27/09/2021 18:12

@duffeldaisy

The death rate of children in the UK is far higher than being quoted. If you follow TigressEllie on Twitter, she announced today that 8 under-19s have died from Covid this month alone until the 22nd (the figures are always delayed on the government website), and in total, 86 children have died. (England 80 Scotland 4 N.Ireland 2)
Why would someone on Twitter by more reliable?

It’s just some made up name you’ve suggested - what qualifies the figures?

Faffinator · 27/09/2021 18:42

@duffeldaisy

The death rate of children in the UK is far higher than being quoted. If you follow TigressEllie on Twitter, she announced today that 8 under-19s have died from Covid this month alone until the 22nd (the figures are always delayed on the government website), and in total, 86 children have died. (England 80 Scotland 4 N.Ireland 2)
And this is less dangerous than Us4them guff how exactly?
herecomesthsun · 27/09/2021 18:52

I understand the figure given above for deaths is taken from the NHS reported figures and totalled.

So anyone who feels inspired could easily check (with a data trawl and possibly a spreadsheet)

herecomesthsun · 27/09/2021 18:54

it is a repeating of reported fact - just added up

though I guess plain facts are quite powerful in their own way

duffeldaisy · 27/09/2021 18:58

@MarshaBradyo She takes the stats from the government website, and adds new ones as they happen. Other figures collators do the same, and they tally.

If you want to check the figures yourself, there are lots on the ONS website, although they group children into 0-1 and 1-15, and other data sets group them into under 19s. They're not easy to find, as they're published by week, which is why the people collating them are so helpful in doing that.

duffeldaisy · 27/09/2021 19:01

"And this is less dangerous than Us4them guff how exactly?"

What? Reporting facts?

People can interpret them however they like. It seems that a lot of people think that that kind of death rate is a low risk. Others don't. But the figures are the figures.

beentoldcomputersaysno · 27/09/2021 19:55

There are lots of people on Twitter. Horses for courses. I find the ones who take the time to consolidate and report on numbers helpful. It's also easy to check if you are so inclined. Others like those who spread misinformation, (although as this thread shows, certain groups are getting easier to check as a number of people have kindly consolidated information on them too). We are all different.

MarshaBradyo · 27/09/2021 19:57

Tbh I don’t do Twitter so a mention of a name doesn’t mean anything to me.

It made more sense when context and source of info was given.

Faffinator · 27/09/2021 20:38

@duffeldaisy your source on twitter is a little short on data analysis but certainly a go-to for emojis.

duffeldaisy · 27/09/2021 21:11

You're looking at the wrong source if you're talking about emojis. It's plainly presented, and they don't use any that I can see, so you've got the wrong person. They just present the data, rather than analysing it in great depth.

If you look at who follows them, there are epidemiologists like Dr Zoe Hyde & Deepti Gurdasani; Dr Zubaida Haque of Independent Sage, Professor Alice Roberts and several MPs among their thousands of followers, so they obviously think they're a worthwhile source of information.

I check in on several places, to try to find out what's happening generally and locally, as it's just not reported in that kind of depth otherwise.

Faffinator · 27/09/2021 21:46

@duffeldaisy I haven't got the wrong source, she has accompanied a post from today about the death of a young person with 2 crying face emojis. She has 4000 followers and these mostly with the #safeeducation in their username. Follow whoever you like but don't present them as neutral/ non-biased, they are not. Personally I don't wish to.exist in an echo chamber of either covid deniers or zero covid fantasists.

Is it ok we are just letting our kids get Covid?
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