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All 12-15s to be offered single dose of Pfizer, CMOs decide

569 replies

bagofconkers · 13/09/2021 14:10

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-coronavirus-vaccines-to-be-offered-to-children-aged-12-to-15-chief-medical-officers-decide-12402855

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6
namechangerforthisconfessionn · 13/09/2021 22:45

@RedToothBrush

I have to say that I'm probably not a million miles from where Watapalava is in thinking, if I had a child in this particular age group. If I'm honest would really struggle with saying yes.

I will qualify that a little:

The kids who benefit most from the vaccine will be kids in lower income homes. Their educational prospects are lower and they are less likely to have support at home. Their health as an adult is also likely to be poorer than kids from better off households. They are more likely to catch covid too, because their parents are more likely to be working in front line jobs and are less able to work from home. So they are more likely to end up off school with covid and for their education to be affected negatively. And long term thats more likely to have a greater impact on their long term health into adulthood.

If you are a kid from a well office background, with educated parents able to help you with school work (including a catch up tutor if needed), who are less likely to catch covid because your parents remain working from home and your health in adult is likely to be comparitively significantly above average, then the benefits that the CMOs highlight are not as significant - but the risk of the vaccine itself remains the same as it would be for children of poorer backgrounds.

Put simply the benefit/risk profiles differ.

Yes, there is a small risk of a serious case of covid still - but this is still low in children anyway.

Ironically, what we will probably see is that its the better off middle class families who most want to be vaccinated - as patterns with adults show. And families who would actually get most benefits from the vaccine are much more likely to be hestitant due to lack of trust in authority.

That said, we don't know what the next variant around the corner is - and its likely that those unvaccinated are particularly vulnerable if a more virulent one was to come along in the next few months or so, because they will have no immunity at all. We don't know if a variant may yet come along and have a partiularly significant impact on children. By the time we started to see a change in pattern it would already be too late for some.

So I must admit, I'm relieved that DS is too young for this. It takes the decision out of my hands.

But I can well see huge arguments breaking out about this - some of them fully reasonable and understanding the risks/benefits -and others 'less rational'.

Part of the problem here is precisely because of how finely balanced it is. And for that reason I do think it should be left to choice (and that should NOT include a 2nd dose as some on this thread want as the evidence doesn't stack up for it). The trouble is its going to be a massive point of conflict for lots of people now who can not comprehend that refusing the vaccine isn't reckless/selfish and conversely having the vaccine isn't likely to make you spontaineously combust and die.

The level headed arguement will be drowned out by the two extremes screaming at each other about how the other doesn't care about children. Which is utter bullshit, because the reason they are both screaming is precisely because they do care about their kids.

People on both sides need to take a bit step back and look at the numbers and have a logical rather than emotional one.

The JVCI says there is a slim benefit but it wasn't enough for them to recommend it on the criteria they look at. The CMOs say there is a slim benefit on the additional criteria they looked at which was enough for them to recommend it. And the benefit isn't equally spread for all children to further complicate the pot. Its knife edge. Really knife edge.

That makes it very difficult to decide what you think is the best thing is - even if you are cool headed and rational about this and trust the scientists and their recommendations and fully understand the data properly.

Very well put
illuyankas · 13/09/2021 22:48

I don't think anyone should be pressured to have the vaccine. Even if your dc missed the chance to get vaccinated at mass roll out at school, I'm sure you can always get vaccinated later if you have changed your mind.

TensmumT · 13/09/2021 22:50

Bunch of absolute idiots. Recently read up that one of these vaccine manufacturers are looking to get approved for babies aged 6 months. They can shove these jabs where the sun doesn't shine!

Mynameismargot · 13/09/2021 22:56

@TensmumT

Bunch of absolute idiots. Recently read up that one of these vaccine manufacturers are looking to get approved for babies aged 6 months. They can shove these jabs where the sun doesn't shine!
If the vaccine causes no harm then I don't see the issue? Countries like the UAE are already vaccinating children age 3+, Sinopharm is being used there.
illuyankas · 13/09/2021 23:01

@TensmumT

Bunch of absolute idiots. Recently read up that one of these vaccine manufacturers are looking to get approved for babies aged 6 months. They can shove these jabs where the sun doesn't shine!
I'm sure we do vaccinate children under 6 months in UK....
Nannyamc · 13/09/2021 23:05

Vaccine has rolled in ROI for all 12 to 15 year olds
2 doses no real point in 1 !!!!

bumbleymummy · 13/09/2021 23:05

I wonder what the benefit to a 6 month old would be seeing as they can’t use the ‘disruption to schooling’ reasoning.

TensmumT · 13/09/2021 23:33

The sinopharm uses inactivated virus, the traditional, well established method you might say. On the other hand, these mrna ones, which includes pfizer are new technologies. Researched for decades they say, but relatively new as vaccines.

Staffy1 · 13/09/2021 23:36

@trumpisagit

This is from the Guardian with regard to 2 doses : "They estimate the rate of myocarditis after two shots of Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine to be 162.2 cases per million for healthy boys aged 12 to 15 and 94 cases per million for healthy boys aged 16 to 17. The equivalent rates for girls were 13.4 and 13 cases per million, respectively"

I would like to see breakdown by age and sex, of myocarditis cases for one shot of vaccine, if anyone has found that.

This is all I can find on first and second doses risk for 12-15 year olds, no break down by sex and who knows how accurate it is: First dose 3 to 17, Second dose 12 to 34 Found that in two places, but can’t find the second link now. I was hoping there would be a much smaller amount for the first vaccine compared to the second as almost everywhere goes on about it being “mainly after the second”. The lack of info is frustrating.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-statement-september-2021-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-aged-12-to-15-years/jcvi-statement-on-covid-19-vaccination-of-children-aged-12-to-15-years-3-september-2021

Silverswirl · 13/09/2021 23:37

@Lostinacloud

On the contrary *@noblegiraffe*, I read the news and asp between the lines of the news. Yesterday Savid Javid said there won’t be vaccine passports. Today, Boris Johnson said, they may prove a useful tool over the winter period so it’s important not to rule anything out.

Boris might as well have said that vaccine passports will be brought in at some point in the future. And now 12-15 year olds have the “choice” to be vaccinated, it will include them too.

Hmm, where have I seen this in action already? - oh yes, literally across the channel in France, where an unvaccinated 12 year old can’t even eat in a restaurant with his vaccinated parents or go to his local football club to play.

That’s exactly the life I want for my children and of course for their “choices” and bodily autonomy decisions to lead to discrimination and segregation. Confused

This exactly. For me this is the most scary part of the whole last 18 months. Everyone keeps saying ‘it’s a choice’ Yes today it’s a choice. But for how long? The threat of being denied access for your child if you or they decide not to vaccinate us hovering like a dark pressure cloud all the time. So many kids will feel peer pressured into this in the future when they are being excluded because of their ‘choice’ My 12 year old cannot have the flu vaccine without my consent. So what is different about this one? If I want her to have it, yet she doesn’t want it, will that mean in future I won’t be able to visit family abroad as I can’t leave her in the UK by herself? It’s not stopping here either, the vaccine is currently waiting for approval for 5-11 year olds in the US. Only a matter of time before it’s rolled out here to every child. So many ethical Questions I can’t get my head round it. Why are some posters constantly saying that the medical benefit for children outweighs the risks? It’s so marginal that it’s not enough for it to be recommended on individual health benefits alone
noblegiraffe · 13/09/2021 23:39

Why are some posters constantly saying that the medical benefit for children outweighs the risks?

Because people keep coming on and lying and saying that they don't.

Staffy1 · 13/09/2021 23:45

@trumpisagit, this link is better:

www.news-medical.net/news/20210913/The-rate-of-vaccine-induced-heart-inflammation-in-children.aspx

Following the second dose of the vaccine, the group found a 162.2 per million incidence rate of cardiac adverse events in boys aged 12-15, around three times higher than estimated by the CDC. In boys aged 16-17, the group also found a higher rate than estimated by the CDC by around 40%, 94 individuals per million vaccinations. The rate of adverse events was also higher than estimated by the CDC amongst girls, 13 and 13.4 per million in those aged 12-15 or 16-17, respectively.

In individuals having received only one dose of the vaccine, adverse event rates were much lower in all groups, 12 and 8.2 per million in boys aged 12-15 and 16-17, respectively. The rate was similarly reduced in girls, with no risk of adverse events in those aged 12-15 and only 2 per million in 16-17-year-olds. The group found that 15% of adverse events occurred following the first dose of the vaccine, with the majority after the second. Most adverse events occurred two days after vaccination, with 91.5% occurring within five days.

Silverswirl · 13/09/2021 23:48

@noblegiraffe

Why are some posters constantly saying that the medical benefit for children outweighs the risks?

Because people keep coming on and lying and saying that they don't.

But it’s not enough of a benefit for the vaccine to be recommended on medical benefit alone?
Staffy1 · 13/09/2021 23:49

@CityCommuter

Not read the full thread but what's the science behind one dose only?
I think because one dose offers some protection against covid and the second dose has a higher risk of myocarditis for this age group.
DumplingsAndStew · 13/09/2021 23:51

@Silverswirl

My 12 year old cannot have the flu vaccine without my consent. So what is different about this one?

Are you sure about that? Does Gillick Competency not apply across the UK?

noblegiraffe · 13/09/2021 23:55

But it’s not enough of a benefit for the vaccine to be recommended on medical benefit alone?

But some people lie and say that the risks outweigh the benefits or that the benefits do not outweigh the risks, which needs to be corrected.

It would be better if it were deleted. Some of the lies on this thread have been thankfully deleted, others robustly challenged.

Silverswirl · 13/09/2021 23:56

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@Silverswirl

My 12 year old cannot have the flu vaccine without my consent. So what is different about this one?

Are you sure about that? Does Gillick Competency not apply across the UK?[/quote]
I have today received the flu consent for later this month.
If I do not complete the consent online form my child WILL NOT receive the flu vaccine in school.
It’s really as simple as that. If she goes in to school that day demanding the flu vaccine she absolutely will not get it unless I have filled that form in on time.

Silverswirl · 13/09/2021 23:58

@noblegiraffe

But it’s not enough of a benefit for the vaccine to be recommended on medical benefit alone?

But some people lie and say that the risks outweigh the benefits or that the benefits do not outweigh the risks, which needs to be corrected.

It would be better if it were deleted. Some of the lies on this thread have been thankfully deleted, others robustly challenged.

But the benefits of this vaccine do not outweigh the risks ENOUGH in this age group for it to be recommended on medical grounds? Correct?
noblegiraffe · 14/09/2021 00:02

But the benefits of this vaccine do not outweigh the risks ENOUGH in this age group for it to be recommended on medical grounds?

Correct. So the JCVI suggested that the government consult other experts (the CMOs) on other types of benefits such as educational benefits as it was not in their remit to consider these.

DumplingsAndStew · 14/09/2021 00:02

@Silverswirl

Do you live in the UK? Which nation?

Silverswirl · 14/09/2021 00:06

[quote DumplingsAndStew]@Silverswirl

Do you live in the UK? Which nation?[/quote]
England. The south.
Do you have school age kids? There is no difference what so ever for my 7 year olds flu consent to my 12 year olds.

DumplingsAndStew · 14/09/2021 00:09

Children under the age of 16 can consent to their own treatment if they're believed to have enough intelligence, competence and understanding to fully appreciate what's involved in their treatment. This is known as being Gillick competent.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/

DumplingsAndStew · 14/09/2021 00:10

And sorry, missed your question - yes I do.

Tealightsandd · 14/09/2021 00:10

But it’s not enough of a benefit for the vaccine to be recommended on medical benefit alone?

Well it is in most of the world. USA, Canada, Europe, Asia, the Middle East.

Silverswirl · 14/09/2021 00:14

[quote DumplingsAndStew]Children under the age of 16 can consent to their own treatment if they're believed to have enough intelligence, competence and understanding to fully appreciate what's involved in their treatment. This is known as being Gillick competent.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/children/[/quote]
This means nothing to the flu vaccine in school for any children up to year 11 (extended to y11 this year)
Parent doesn’t complete the online consent- child will not be vaccinated in school.
If you are in England and have a child in school currently you will Have had this letter, or be getting it very soon.
Of course an older child could visit the gp I guess and arrange their own flu vaccine (not sure how that would work with permission) but my 12 year old wouldn’t be able to get anywhere to get the vaccine outside of school even if she wanted it (if I didn’t agree too it)

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