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All 12-15s to be offered single dose of Pfizer, CMOs decide

569 replies

bagofconkers · 13/09/2021 14:10

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-coronavirus-vaccines-to-be-offered-to-children-aged-12-to-15-chief-medical-officers-decide-12402855

OP posts:
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6
pontypridd · 13/09/2021 21:40

I think Chris Witty is now no more than a puppet.

DumplingsAndStew · 13/09/2021 21:42

@Lostinacloud

I am asking for everybody’s choice regarding vaccination to be respected with no further judgement just like in the good old days.

Read your post at Mon 13-Sep-21 20:31:22

Is that fuck respectful of people's choice to vaccinate. You seem to spend so much time trying to influence the way other people think, that you struggle to maintain a grasp on what you think yourself.

illuyankas · 13/09/2021 21:42

What I don’t want to happen is for non-vaccinated children to be discriminated against or made to feel socially uncomfortable because of that choice

I really don't think that would happen in UK, tbh. Maybe different story in US, when it's proven that more vaccinated children means less disruption like in SF, where 90% of children are vaccinated, they had no covid outbreak.

Lostinacloud · 13/09/2021 21:43

100% @pontypridd

Explosivefarts · 13/09/2021 21:55

@pontypridd

I think Chris Witty is now no more than a puppet.
Yeah he definitely wasn’t up there saying all kids in the age group should be vaccinated. It was more look at the facts and make a balanced decision yourself. He certainly wasn’t pushing it .
CallmeHendricks · 13/09/2021 21:57

Interesting language choices on this thread.
"penalised," "punished," "victimised," "discriminated against."

Watapalava · 13/09/2021 21:58

I'm not for a second saying i want travel or non isolation rules

I'm just saying it would have made it at least worth while

They'd have given parents a reason to vaccinate

They didn't so i don't think they care if people vaccinate or not

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2021 22:03

I have to say that I'm probably not a million miles from where Watapalava is in thinking, if I had a child in this particular age group. If I'm honest would really struggle with saying yes.

I will qualify that a little:

The kids who benefit most from the vaccine will be kids in lower income homes. Their educational prospects are lower and they are less likely to have support at home. Their health as an adult is also likely to be poorer than kids from better off households. They are more likely to catch covid too, because their parents are more likely to be working in front line jobs and are less able to work from home. So they are more likely to end up off school with covid and for their education to be affected negatively. And long term thats more likely to have a greater impact on their long term health into adulthood.

If you are a kid from a well office background, with educated parents able to help you with school work (including a catch up tutor if needed), who are less likely to catch covid because your parents remain working from home and your health in adult is likely to be comparitively significantly above average, then the benefits that the CMOs highlight are not as significant - but the risk of the vaccine itself remains the same as it would be for children of poorer backgrounds.

Put simply the benefit/risk profiles differ.

Yes, there is a small risk of a serious case of covid still - but this is still low in children anyway.

Ironically, what we will probably see is that its the better off middle class families who most want to be vaccinated - as patterns with adults show. And families who would actually get most benefits from the vaccine are much more likely to be hestitant due to lack of trust in authority.

That said, we don't know what the next variant around the corner is - and its likely that those unvaccinated are particularly vulnerable if a more virulent one was to come along in the next few months or so, because they will have no immunity at all. We don't know if a variant may yet come along and have a partiularly significant impact on children. By the time we started to see a change in pattern it would already be too late for some.

So I must admit, I'm relieved that DS is too young for this. It takes the decision out of my hands.

But I can well see huge arguments breaking out about this - some of them fully reasonable and understanding the risks/benefits -and others 'less rational'.

Part of the problem here is precisely because of how finely balanced it is. And for that reason I do think it should be left to choice (and that should NOT include a 2nd dose as some on this thread want as the evidence doesn't stack up for it). The trouble is its going to be a massive point of conflict for lots of people now who can not comprehend that refusing the vaccine isn't reckless/selfish and conversely having the vaccine isn't likely to make you spontaineously combust and die.

The level headed arguement will be drowned out by the two extremes screaming at each other about how the other doesn't care about children. Which is utter bullshit, because the reason they are both screaming is precisely because they do care about their kids.

People on both sides need to take a bit step back and look at the numbers and have a logical rather than emotional one.

The JVCI says there is a slim benefit but it wasn't enough for them to recommend it on the criteria they look at. The CMOs say there is a slim benefit on the additional criteria they looked at which was enough for them to recommend it. And the benefit isn't equally spread for all children to further complicate the pot. Its knife edge. Really knife edge.

That makes it very difficult to decide what you think is the best thing is - even if you are cool headed and rational about this and trust the scientists and their recommendations and fully understand the data properly.

BewareTheLibrarians · 13/09/2021 22:04

@Watapalava
You seem to have missed the point of my post, about potential randomness outweighing the perceived rarity.

I say perceived as, as you’ve said upthread, you don’t know any kids affected by covid. It’s not on your radar at all. As I am the parent of someone affected, I meet other parents with kids going through similar, so I’m far more aware of more people that are affected. And the most accurate number is probably somewhere in the middle of that.

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2021 22:10

@Explosivefarts

Chris witty didn’t even sound convinced himself or he wouldn’t have said everyone needs to make the decision themselves . He also double repeated that it was a “choice “ said no children will be penalised either way .
Well yes. Because he's a professional at the top of his field.

He's just done a recommendation which takes into account medical ethics - which are do no harm and that children themselves should not be vaccinated if they themselves do not get a health benefit.

But most of all he understand the ethics of how consent has to be freely given and can not be under 'undue pressure' because this has consequences.

We know that pressure can led to MORE rather than less vaccine hesitancy too. So framing it as a choice is more likely to increase uptake.

I would be more worried if he had been more pushy about it, given how finely balanced the risk/benefit profile is. So people can make an informed decision.

He is absoluetely pitching this in exactly the way he should.

Vaccine programmes rely on trust to be most effective. Not authoritarian dictats which have the converse effect.

illuyankas · 13/09/2021 22:11

@RedToothBrush
I actually don't get your point at all. Long covid can affect any child, low income or not. And I think that's the biggest factor that may affect the child long term.

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2021 22:12

[quote BewareTheLibrarians]@Watapalava
You seem to have missed the point of my post, about potential randomness outweighing the perceived rarity.

I say perceived as, as you’ve said upthread, you don’t know any kids affected by covid. It’s not on your radar at all. As I am the parent of someone affected, I meet other parents with kids going through similar, so I’m far more aware of more people that are affected. And the most accurate number is probably somewhere in the middle of that.[/quote]
Which is why we have research and evidence not ancedotes.

And then we have CMOs and the JVCI who process this for layman and make recommendations.

And we have (effectively) recommendations which differ (but notably don't conflict - rather the CMOs actually builds on the JVCI) but this just adds to this confusion.

LivingInABuildingSite · 13/09/2021 22:12

RedToothbrush - very articulate and well explained.

Can I ask though, in your explanation, the less well off kids are more likely to already have caught covid surely? As their parents would’ve carried on working throughout like you say. So in theory would have an element of natural immunity.

So, the middle classes should push more for their kids to get jabbed?

I might’ve misunderstood but that’s the thought I had. And the natural immunity may have waned anyway, and I think research is suggesting one jab+covid gives the best immunity so still worth pushing for a jab.

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2021 22:20

[quote illuyankas]@RedToothBrush
I actually don't get your point at all. Long covid can affect any child, low income or not. And I think that's the biggest factor that may affect the child long term.[/quote]
Yes. But we also aren't seeing huge numbers of kids presenting with it either.

And the science seems to suggest kids get better long term protection from catching it rather than having been vaccinated.

We are hearing arguments from the scientific community that there is a danger that we might get caught in a trap of constantly being 'behind' covd because we become reliant on vaccines rather than getting natural immunity which may offer more protection for new variants.

At this stage we don't fully know which is better. Even taking into account a risk of long covid.

And no we don't know the long term effects of the vaccines either (this is actually a fair comment). We think they are safe - based on research in other areas. Certainly for older groups because of the risk/benefit balance. But this might be more finely balanced for children too.

Plus the whole point is that its a debate about benefits v risks and even if the risk remains the same across all groups we know that the benefit doesn't. At that point is the benefit enough for all parents/kids??

I don't know. We should be having this conversation. But its certainly isn't a cut and dry answer.

No one should be flamed for saying they are finding it incredibly hard.

BewareTheLibrarians · 13/09/2021 22:21

Which is why we have research and evidence not ancedotes.

I hope it was clear that I was aiming for this (more coherent!) point. Smile

bumbleymummy · 13/09/2021 22:21

and its likely that those unvaccinated are particularly vulnerable if a more virulent one was to come along in the next few months or so, because they will have no immunity at all.

Recent reports have said 50-70% of teens may have immunity already. Iirc there is evidence showing broader immunity after natural infection compared to immunity after vaccination.

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2021 22:23

@LivingInABuildingSite

RedToothbrush - very articulate and well explained.

Can I ask though, in your explanation, the less well off kids are more likely to already have caught covid surely? As their parents would’ve carried on working throughout like you say. So in theory would have an element of natural immunity.

So, the middle classes should push more for their kids to get jabbed?

I might’ve misunderstood but that’s the thought I had. And the natural immunity may have waned anyway, and I think research is suggesting one jab+covid gives the best immunity so still worth pushing for a jab.

Its certainly a valid and reasonable argument and one I won't argue against.

But yes having had covid plus 1 dose is coming out particularly well in studies I've seen knocking about.

shrugs

I genuinely don't know which why I'd jump if this were my choice to make.

bumbleymummy · 13/09/2021 22:25

“Discussed on the other thread” = someone pointed out that it came from vaers data and therefore should be completely disregarded. (Ignoring the fact that the research filtered by a specific term to try to only include medically reported events)

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2021 22:28

@bumbleymummy

and its likely that those unvaccinated are particularly vulnerable if a more virulent one was to come along in the next few months or so, because they will have no immunity at all.

Recent reports have said 50-70% of teens may have immunity already. Iirc there is evidence showing broader immunity after natural infection compared to immunity after vaccination.

Yep about natural immunity.

I didn't know the figure of 50 - 70% of teens. Again we know that this is going to be much higher in some areas and much lower in others.

The recent trend had high cases in teens in areas, which previously hadn't been as affected as others (hello Devon and Cornwall) and drops in areas which had previously had higher caseloads (hello the NW).

So yeah.

I just wish we could suck some of the emotive stuff out of this conversation though, because its not really helping anyone and thats the thing thats probably going to most effect kids day to day (parents having rows about it with each other and their children and then arguments over friends who make different choices etc etc).

The worry for me is that really free consent is going to be very difficult in this age group because of undue pressure being flung around in all directions.

And thats what I'm very mindful of and how destructive that force could be in its own right.

crapatthis1 · 13/09/2021 22:31

What happens if separated parents can't agree on this? I know children will have the overall say but I'm taking more the younger age range ie 12 year olds.

RuleWithAWoodenFoot · 13/09/2021 22:31

I am asking for everybody’s choice regarding vaccination to be respected with no further judgement just like in the good old days.

What 'good old days' - days when children died of small pox and measles? I totally judge people for not vaccinating their children, especially if they themselves have ever been vaccinated against anything.

RuleWithAWoodenFoot · 13/09/2021 22:32

What happens if separated parents can't agree on this?

What happens with other vaccinations?

CityCommuter · 13/09/2021 22:35

Not read the full thread but what's the science behind one dose only?

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2021 22:39

@crapatthis1

What happens if separated parents can't agree on this? I know children will have the overall say but I'm taking more the younger age range ie 12 year olds.
Lawyers have a Christmas Bonus.
MarshaBradyo · 13/09/2021 22:42

I would be more worried if he had been more pushy about it, given how finely balanced the risk/benefit profile is. So people can make an informed decision.

He is absoluetely pitching this in exactly the way he should.

I agree with this.

It’s a hard decision and no one should feel pressured either way. I don’t know atm but have a bit of time.

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