Has anyone else pulled back/ended friendships with unvaccinated friends?

[mowly77]

This feels right to me but I’m not sure how she’s going to take it, & wondered if anyone else had similar experiences? I’m fully vaccinated; but antibody test tells me I’ve had covid in last 6 months. I’m ill a lot - crappy immune system. Really sick this last week, rivers of snot, endless coughing. My DD is at nursery & had milder version first. I get everything she gets. Could be covid again; could not be. Either way I’m bloody ill & self employed so lost loads of money. Fed up of being ill all the time.

Recent friendship with someone & we’ve been working on my allotment together. She’s a bit lonely, single mum, now wants to be my BFF & invited me & DD to her DS birthday (big) party in a few weeks - indoors. She’s cheerfully told me she’s unvaccinated. Didn’t really sink in before. I’ve been in her car; she’s been round for a cuppa a few times.

Now I’m fretting; plus thinking how idiotically selfish she is. I’m going to tell her no more indoor stuff, no birthday party. Outdoor allotment socially distanced is fine.

This winter is going to be a car crash & I don’t have any more truck with it. I know I’m not BU but it still feels like a delicate line.

Well that's not what I am saying is it? But OK suit yourself.

Ta ra.

Doh! Monday...

I’m done!

@Blackbird2020

Good link but wow my head will explode if I read it all! I'm being accused now of allsorts. Sigh. I don't know what to think anymore.

Haha I didn't realise you said that either!!

peteycat stop being deliberately obtuse. Some people cannot get vaccinated for perfectly valid medical reasons, allergies etc. The more people that do not vaccinate for other reasons not rooted in science, the more the threat of infection to those who cannot get that protection. That is a fundamental principle behind vaccination. That if as many as possible get vaccinated then infections will be reduced and there will be less threat to those who can’t be vaccinated or for whom the vaccination is not as effective. That has held through all of modern history’s vaccination programmes, how we eradicated smallpox, how we nearly eradicated Measles, Mumps and Rubella until the anti vax movement enabled new breakout infections. How we overcame previous pandemics like the one in 1957. Herd immunity is not a concept developed in relation to infection, that is too unpredictable, it is achieved through high enough levels of properly conducted programmes of vaccination.

Why are people coming on here with deliberate misinformation eg the unvaccinated are no more a threat of transmission than the vaccinated despite people already posting the results of the actual scientific research? Maybe it is not deliberate, maybe they really believe the misinformation over the expert advice, and are so arrogant as to promote it over the science?

But you keep saying we are all being mean to you, as opposed to reflecting wider society’s attitudes. Personally I think people not doing all they can, as most people have, to protect society through vaccination are the mean ones.

I absolutely understand that back in January / February there were a significant number unsure of the vaccine but that number has halved to less than 11 % and the number who claim Covid is no threat to them in the face of all the evidence have become a much larger proportion (see the government surveys) so it isn’t rubbish is it?

The right to autonomy over your body is a much less clear cut issue in relation to vaccination than other issues. The whole anti vax Nuremberg argument is a complete distortion to what was actually determined at Nuremburg.

However worst of all is confusing the issue of a woman’s right to choose what happens to her body in the immense physical and mental challenge of bearing a child and raising it, with a painless vaccination that has been extensively tested and approved as safe and will protect you and others from both short and long term problems, and benefit society. “My body, my choice” is a slogan whose power was forged by women’s right’s campaigners around the world whose cause is still very much under siege on that much more profound issue.

Oh so you want to pick and choose which situation these things apply to then?

They are put in place for a reason thank goodness.

@Emilyontmoor

peteycat stop being deliberately obtuse. Some people cannot get vaccinated for perfectly valid medical reasons, allergies etc. The more people that do not vaccinate for other reasons not rooted in science, the more the threat of infection to those who cannot get that protection. That is a fundamental principle behind vaccination. That if as many as possible get vaccinated then infections will be reduced and there will be less threat to those who can’t be vaccinated or for whom the vaccination is not as effective. That has held through all of modern history’s vaccination programmes, how we eradicated smallpox, how we nearly eradicated Measles, Mumps and Rubella until the anti vax movement enabled new breakout infections. How we overcame previous pandemics like the one in 1957. Herd immunity is not a concept developed in relation to infection, that is too unpredictable, it is achieved through high enough levels of properly conducted programmes of vaccination.

Why are people coming on here with deliberate misinformation eg the unvaccinated are no more a threat of transmission than the vaccinated despite people already posting the results of the actual scientific research? Maybe it is not deliberate, maybe they really believe the misinformation over the expert advice, and are so arrogant as to promote it over the science?

But you keep saying we are all being mean to you, as opposed to reflecting wider society’s attitudes. Personally I think people not doing all they can, as most people have, to protect society through vaccination are the mean ones.

I absolutely understand that back in January / February there were a significant number unsure of the vaccine but that number has halved to less than 11 % and the number who claim Covid is no threat to them in the face of all the evidence have become a much larger proportion (see the government surveys) so it isn’t rubbish is it?

@Peteycat

This is a really clear post and most of us seem to understand this.

Some don't and some chose to be deliberately obtuse or have nothing else to do of an evening perhaps. You will know which category you fall into.

Just because you wrote a diatribe regarding vaccines, and the use of them etc, doesn't deviate from the point that people are free to make their own decisions.

I'm not really bothered about people being mean, I just think it's double standards because most of the people being horrible calling me obtuse etc are spouting morola obligations and responsibilities! It's so hypocritical.

@MLMbotsno

What I do with my evening is none of your business, nor is whether people get vaccinated or not. Can you not see how entitled you are?!

Peteycat People are not free to make their own decisions. There are absolute limits on to what extent you are free to make your own decisions set by law and societal norms dependent on a balance of what is in the interests of society and what in the interests of the individual. You are only free to murder someone if the consequences of not doing so would result in the greater harm to you. Thankfully in this country women do have a right to choose whether they carry a child, their body, their choice, but in other countries as recently introduced in Texas the law prevents them from doing so. Their bodies, no choice, in a situation where the consequences for a woman’s health and life are far more far reaching than taking a safe vaccine. That is why I think it is deeply wrong to appropriate that slogan for taking a stance on vaccination, whether it is out of politics or science denial, when the consequences of denial of choice are not remotely comparable, and a women’s right to avoid those consequences have been and are still being fought for so hard.

And the societal norm on vaccination is very clear, the vast majority, 89% plus, follow the science and the benefit to society. I actually agree that vaccines should be voluntary and I don’t agree with vaccine passports either but then I still cling to the idea we live in a liberal country and I respect your right to make that decision even if I don’t respect the decision. However do not try and claim that in refusing vaccine you are doing anything but going against societal norms, and that you do so in the company of people who at best deny science but also in some cases deny Covid or even have fallen for full on conspiracy theories. Hence the response from wider society. In particular not being vaccinated does mean someone represent a greater threat of infection so many in the rest of society, especially if know they are vulnerable, will actively avoid contact.

The irony is that the emerging evidence pulls the rug out from those who believe “Covid is no threat to me” because I am young / fit / eat healthily / exercise etc as the anecdata on those who found themselves in hospital in spite of all that is being confirmed by evidence that small particles on your DNA are implicated in whether you get the disease severely or not.

It is through that

However worst of all is confusing the issue of a woman’s right to choose what happens to her body in the immense physical and mental challenge of bearing a child and raising it, with a painless vaccination that has been extensively tested and approved as safe and will protect you and others from both short and long term problems, and benefit society

I’m not sure there is any confusion between the two, it is merely the flip side of the same coin. Just like the pros and cons of social media, press freedom, capitalism, and so on....

The pros and cons of this ‘coin’ should always be up for open and respectful discussion. It saddens me when I see passive aggressive swipes added to the end of posts. These are emotive topics, we are all entitled to disagree, vehemently, but don’t let the anonymity of internet forums change the way we treat each other in disagreements.

The response to vaccines by the wider society was mainly for most, the simple fact that they may not be permitted to travel without it. You have a very screwed up view if you think that most people did it for the greater good or wider society.

There are a lot of saintly people on this thread who don't judge their friends by their vaccination status. Though I suspect a lot of them are unvaccinated. I bloody do.
The swift end to this pandemic, and reducing the number of deaths, relies on people stepping up to take a vaccine. Not just for ourselves but for others. So I judge and feel perfectly vindicated in doing so.

No saint here, I just don’t have the headspace and inclination to give a fuck about others medical histories. To me it’s a waste of energy and life.

The response to vaccines by the wider society was mainly for most, the simple fact that they may not be permitted to travel without it. You have a very screwed up view if you think that most people did it for the greater good or wider society.

@peteycat

A lot of peoples individual reasons may have aligned with the gains benefiting wider society but you can’t possibly know what those individual reasons are whether desire to travel, avoid lockdowns, avoid illness, avoid spreading, avoid further disruption economically.

Either way, you’re making up facts in your head and spouting them as fact that can’t possibly be verified either way. Have you commissioned a survey of peoples reasons (which will likely be multiple) for vaccination?

It’s bizarre that you’re prepared to so whole heartedly state the only reason anyone got vaccinated was to travel.

I don’t think you’re a reliable judge of whether anybodies view is ‘screwed up’. (And did I imagine it was you who was passionately defending their right to air an opinion when people posted in a similar manner to you just have?)

The response to vaccines by the wider society was mainly for most, the simple fact that they may not be permitted to travel without it. You have a very screwed up view if you think that most people did it for the greater good or wider society.

This thread nearly got into an interesting space on moral philosophy last night before veering back, and I feel like this comment lays bare the differences between people on this one - and their inability to see things from another's point of view if that isn't their (or their immediate community's) worldview.

There's an interesting discussion to be had over responses to covid and virtue ethics, contractualism and other schools of thought - and how different rhetorical approaches were dominant at different times in the pandemic.

But in the meantime... I think people do this for a lot of different reasons. I wasn't particularly worried about Covid for myself. I think my husband and I both had it in the first wave. I won't be doing any foreign travel until my home country lets me in, which won't be for a long time. I haven't enjoyed the recent shitshow, but it hasn't been bad for me and my family financially - we've actually benefited, even though there were some hairy moments.

But I was also deeply uncomfortable with the idea that I could pass it on to someone vulnerable when I could take steps to reduce that risk. That vulnerable people might be cut off from society for longer if enough people didn't get the vaccine and get it fast. I couldn't be happy, ethically, with being able to contribute to reducing the economically catastrophic consequences for those not as lucky as me. I'm being honest here - there are clearly selfish elements to my choice but that's an active feeling of guilt I'm also trying to avoid, based on the potential impact of my choice on others.

And so I was front of the queue for a vaccine, and really happy about having done my bit. I don't think people wanting to do their bit for others or for their community/society is as rare as you think it is.

"It’s bizarre that you’re prepared to so whole heartedly state the only reason anyone got vaccinated was to travel"

No, I said mainly. All I hear is, I had it because I want to go on holiday. I'm not judging them by any means, and I am sure there are many who have had it to protect loved ones, but this idea that you should have it for the wider society, or that's the reason why people have it is nonsense. Some of the most caring people I know have not had it, but I will bet my life if they were needed to care for someone, help out etc they are the first ones to do so.

All I am saying is its not selfish to not want something.

"And so I was front of the queue for a vaccine, and really happy about having done my bit. I don't think people wanting to do their bit for others or for their community/society is as rare as you think it is"

No it isn't rare, I'm sure. We just have to try and step away from this construct that everyone who can, should have it because that's wrong. Calling people selfish is wrong too.

but this idea that you should have it for the wider society, or that's the reason why people have it is nonsense.

I think that’s a really sad world view. It’s certainly not my experience of the discussion around vaccines - I’ve had some really interesting chats with people on motivations, which are often a mix of personal benefit, but a bit nervous about it, but want to contribute to this whole thing being over.

I don’t think we’re all quite as selfish as you believe; but I can understand that if those in your personal circle who are vaccinated aren’t those you usually associate with altruism, then you will take a view based on that experience. I don’t think you can extrapolate based on that, though, and certainly not to the point of calling it nonsense.

"don’t think we’re all quite as selfish as you believe; but I can understand that if those in your personal circle who are vaccinated aren’t those you usually associate with altruism, then you will take a view based on that experience. I don’t think you can extrapolate based on that, though, and certainly not to the point of calling it nonsense"

Altruism has nothing to do with a decision to have a vaccine or not.

Everyone I associate with is altruistic. And real.

No it isn't rare, I'm sure. We just have to try and step away from this construct that everyone who can, should have it because that's wrong. Calling people selfish is wrong too

But you’ve just said it’s nonsense, and that most people are doing it for selfish reasons.

But it’s also fine to want people to get vaccinated if they can, because society benefits. It’s a rational point of view and I find it difficult to describe as morally wrong, given the many benefits higher vaccination levels will bring for many people. And those for whom societal benefit has at least partially been a factor in their decision making are probably more likely to few strongly about others not doing so, even if they respect their right to make that choice (and I accept that some don’t respect that right.)