Has anyone else pulled back/ended friendships with unvaccinated friends?

[mowly77]

This feels right to me but I’m not sure how she’s going to take it, & wondered if anyone else had similar experiences? I’m fully vaccinated; but antibody test tells me I’ve had covid in last 6 months. I’m ill a lot - crappy immune system. Really sick this last week, rivers of snot, endless coughing. My DD is at nursery & had milder version first. I get everything she gets. Could be covid again; could not be. Either way I’m bloody ill & self employed so lost loads of money. Fed up of being ill all the time.

Recent friendship with someone & we’ve been working on my allotment together. She’s a bit lonely, single mum, now wants to be my BFF & invited me & DD to her DS birthday (big) party in a few weeks - indoors. She’s cheerfully told me she’s unvaccinated. Didn’t really sink in before. I’ve been in her car; she’s been round for a cuppa a few times.

Now I’m fretting; plus thinking how idiotically selfish she is. I’m going to tell her no more indoor stuff, no birthday party. Outdoor allotment socially distanced is fine.

This winter is going to be a car crash & I don’t have any more truck with it. I know I’m not BU but it still feels like a delicate line.

Maybe you should just lock yourself away from the world - after all how do you know if anyone you come into contact with has been vaccinated ? This is a shocker !

@Peteycat

The response to vaccines by the wider society was mainly for most, the simple fact that they may not be permitted to travel without it. You have a very screwed up view if you think that most people did it for the greater good or wider society.

Pure guessing by you. You have no idea why the vast majority of adults chose to get vaccinated. You guess at foreign travel

"19:09flippertyop

Maybe you should just lock yourself away from the world - after all how do you know if anyone you come into contact with has been vaccinated ? This is a shocker !"

Yep.

"19:32MLMbotsno

Peteycat

The response to vaccines by the wider society was mainly for most, the simple fact that they may not be permitted to travel without it. You have a very screwed up view if you think that most people did it for the greater good or wider society.

Pure guessing by you. You have no idea why the vast majority of adults chose to get vaccinated.
You guess at foreign travel hmm"

Why do you think most in society are oh so selfless and caring? We know as human beings that isn't the case. Not everyone did, but alot of people did.

Bizawit What a subjective and typically western centric article, very selective in selecting population trends that are mainly seen in the western world. 26% of the world's population is under 15 and that is pretty much the case give or take a couple of percentage points on every continent except North America and Europe, it is 40% in Africa. 9% are over 65. www.statista.com/statistics/265759/world-population-by-age-and-region/ There are quite a lot of people arguing these population trends are disastrous for the planet given it's resources and the threats of climate change.

And though we have the consequences of the post war baby boom here, as I said before I don't hear anyone in the UK proposing even encouraging women to have more children as a solution, let alone resisting their right to choose.

Of course women's reproduction has been a focus of control over the centuries, but rarely has that had anything to do with the overall interests of society . Aside from a very few matriarchal societies it has been all about serving patriarchal power structures at a national and local level, therefore by definition nothing to do with the interests of circa 50% of the population whose choices and power were limited as a result. However that is no longer true. Nobody in the UK is now is arguing that a woman deciding not to see through a pregnancy is against the interests of society, against their religious beliefs perhaps, or arising from misogyny possibly, but it is not a norm in our society.

Whereas the emphasis of society in the current time of pandemic is very much on encouraging people to get the safe vaccine because of the benefits to society in terms of controlling infections and deaths, protecting the NHS and enabling us to open up society and avoid lockdowns.

I agree that people should have the choice but people should also accept that a decision to deny the science and government advice (though accepted that is not exactly a model of wisdom and consistency) and not to vaccinate will not be respected by a lot of the rest of society, and people might choose to reduce their risk of infection by avoiding them in places where transmission is likely. I hope we don't see vaccine passports this winter but if that is how we avoid lockdown and keep our theatres and other venues and the wider economy going then perhaps people who choose not to vaccinate should be ready for that too. It is a consequence of their choice.

Why do you think most in society are oh so selfless and caring? We know as human beings that isn't the case. Not everyone did, but alot of people did.

We don’t ‘know’ that at all. There are whole schools of psychology and behavioural science on this. We know that people’s motivations for all sorts of actions are complex, particularly at times of real or perceived community crisis, where you can often see really clearly people’s actions drawing stronger motivation from a sense of responsibility to society and community.

This isn’t really squaring with you saying everyone you know is altruistic - why is it hard to understand that people have motivations beyond pure self-interest in getting vaccinated? Self-interest and wider societal/community interest can be really deeply entwined.

Doubtless, some people will have had it for travel, nightclubs, whatever. I described my own motivations, others have done likewise. There is a complexity to human motivations and behaviours that you’re not allowing for here.

I agree that people should have the choice but people should also accept that a decision to deny the science and government advice (though accepted that is not exactly a model of wisdom and consistency) and not to vaccinate will not be respected by a lot of the rest of society, and people might choose to reduce their risk of infection by avoiding them in places where transmission is likely. I hope we don't see vaccine passports this winter but if that is how we avoid lockdown and keep our theatres and other venues and the wider economy going then perhaps people who choose not to vaccinate should be ready for that too. It is a consequence of their choice.

This is well put. I feel we are (or should be) entering into a period of ‘least harm’ (within reasonable limits) in terms of public policy as we navigate the path to endemic Covid. In that, there will be those who fare better, and those who fare worse.

After the huge challenges of the last year, I would put more weight on economic (jobs and businesses staying open) than discretionary social (ability of all to go to a theatre or nightclub or gig).

"This isn’t really squaring with you saying everyone you know is altruistic - why is it hard to understand that people have motivations beyond pure self-interest in getting vaccinated? Self-interest and wider societal/community interest can be really deeply entwined"

So why then do people commit crimes that damage others, litter etc. They are not thinking of the wider society then. I already said that there will definitely be people who vaccinate themselves for society, but not everyone.

Everyone I know is altruistic, that does not mean that they apply it to their own choice in vaccination. You can still be a caring, considerate person if you choose not to get the vaccine for purposes beyond medical reasons.

So why then do people commit crimes that damage others, litter etc. They are not thinking of the wider society then. I already said that there will definitely be people who vaccinate themselves for society, but not everyone.

Because people aren’t all the same. Some people do shitty things. Some people don’t. Some people do amazing, altruistic, selfless things. People are varied and complex.

No one has said everyone has done it for altruistic or even partially altruistic reasons.

You’re the one who said that for most, it was entirely selfish and that it’s ‘screwed up’ and ‘nonsense’ to think otherwise, and that ‘Altruism has nothing to do with a decision to have a vaccine or not.’

That’s what you’ve been challenged on - I don’t think there’s evidence for those statements.

There doesn't need to be evidence. Just ask people why they had the vaccine and you will be surprised. The wider society is not the go to answer for everyone. For some, yes of course but alot of people do it because they have other reasons.

There doesn't need to be evidence. Just ask people why they had the vaccine and you will be surprised. The wider society is not the go to answer for everyone. For some, yes of course but alot of people do it because they have other reasons.

As I’ve said upthread, I’ve had lots of discussions with people on these issues. I’ve already shared what I learned from that.

But regardless, neither of our anecdotal evidence based on our social circles actually has any basis for making statements about what most people will or won’t do, or the motivations for their behaviours or choices. We all live in our own bubbles, and we can’t extrapolate those to all, or even most, people.

"As I’ve said upthread, I’ve had lots of discussions with people on these issues. I’ve already shared what I learned from that"

Me too.

Me too.

Yep. Both in our bubbles. In no way can either of us spin that out to ‘most people’.

‘Most people I’ve discussed this with’? Great, knock yourself out, you’ll get no argument from me. But further than that, objective evidence is needed for those sorts of statements.

@Peteycat

"19:32MLMbotsno

Peteycat

The response to vaccines by the wider society was mainly for most, the simple fact that they may not be permitted to travel without it. You have a very screwed up view if you think that most people did it for the greater good or wider society.

Pure guessing by you. You have no idea why the vast majority of adults chose to get vaccinated.
You guess at foreign travel hmm"

Why do you think most in society are oh so selfless and caring? We know as human beings that isn't the case. Not everyone did, but alot of people did.

You are guessing @peteycat suggesting most do it (vaccinate) for travel. You have no idea. Why do you invent things?

Everyone I know had the vaccine to protect themselves or cev, elderly family etc not to go on holiday.

Depends who you mix with and ask Peter....cat. 🤔

"You are guessing @peteycat suggesting most do it (vaccinate) for travel. You have no idea.
Why do you invent things?"

It's not inventing things to suggest that people have had a vaccine so they can resume a life they had pre pandemic. Naturally there will be people who have it to protect others like I have already said, but this constant narrative about everyone doing it for the public simply isn't true.

Ok @Peteycat you’ve totally hijacked this thread with a load of argumentative rubbish. Please bore off now.

I’ve had some good advice from other posters. This winter, I’m not going to be knowingly mixing with a bunch of other unvaccinated adults due to their increased risk of:

A. Catching covid in the first place

B. Carrying a higher viral load than unvaccinated people (AND preschool children.)

I won’t be taking anyone to task about their decisions, it’s about me & my own health & I will frame it in that way.

However, those who do not have a medical reason for being vaccinated are indeed being selfish - vaccination is both good for the individual AND society in general. Without a vaccination programme the economy couldn’t have opened up again and life couldn’t have returned to some version of reality. End of.