Mandatory Covid vaccine

[Aldilogue]

Hello all.
I'm a nurse in regional NSW. Where I live we have not had a Covid case for 500 days. I work in a private hospital on a surgical ward ( all elective surgeries) mainly orthopaedic surgery but also gastric sleeves, urinary, hysterectomies and sone medical patients as the public hospital is full and we get some overflow.
Our government has released a public health order stating all healthcare workers who work in NSW need to have at least once dose of AstraZeneca or Pfizer before September 30. If you do not you "will be excluded from the workplace".
I'm interested in opinions as I know it's not mandatory in the Uk.

[quote illuyankas]@bumbleymummy
I was typing my big post, so I didn't see your comment.
The study link is there on the article, if you have actually read the article before commenting.

www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1931[/quote]
Thanks. They looked at over 50 and under 50. It would have been good to see more of a breakdown by age group.

“Harmful consequences” for asking people’s opinions on immunity after infection? “Harmful consequences” for pointing out that immunity after infection is durable , based on several recent studies? Seriously, some of you need to get over yourselves. Heaven forbid someone should mention that people also gain immunity after infection. It’s not exactly a news flash, is it? hmm

I don't even think this is worth typing out, but obviously these examples aren't the issues with your posts, and you've (deliberately I assume) wildly missed the point.

You've carefully cherry picked out sentences that are perfectly reasonable questions and obviously aren't the things that posters are referencing as harmful. In this case it's the classic distorting of information and lack of relevant context. But posters time and time again have pointed this out and it doesn't make a jot of difference.

Haven’t cherry picked anything. It’s literally what I’ve asked on this thread.

@bumbleymummy I think you are doing a great job.
But hopefully people can see what is your real aim is from us painfully trying to converse with you for sensible/sincere responce, which we never get, do we?
I think we are actually doing a good job, tbh. Only thing we should do now is not to get sucked into your charm.

[quote bumbleymummy]**@illuyankas did the study break the risk down by age group? Iirc the issue with the AZ vaccine was the clots were more likely in older people with the virus so the vaccine was lower risk but in younger populations the risk of clots was lower so the vaccine was an increased risk which is why they stopped using it in younger people.[/quote]

@illuyankas tells you that in her country people don't take issue with what vaccine they get - they are grateful for it as the supply is low, and this is what you come back with? Either your comprehension skills are lacking or you simply don't care, but maybe take a moment next time.

Clot risks from COVID infection are much, much higher. It does not compare. At all.

@bumbleymummy

Yes, many people in Australia will not actually have natural immunity so it may not apply as much over there - yet - but people on this thread are discussing their opinions on the situation in the U.K. as well so that is why I’ve asked their opinion. I think it’s interesting (and relevant) to find out people’s views irt vaccine status/immune status in healthcare settings.

The particular situation in the OP was somewhat more complex than that, as is the current Australian/NSW state. You don't live here and are not embedded in our cultural and social conventions nor are you aware of the health status of our elderly, vulnerable, indigenous community, or young people. Need I go on? As much as you may say you're "asking for opinions", it's fairly clear what you're actually doing. You're for immunity via infection for healthy people/children (although I don't how you can possibly identify them from the outside.) This is what is dangerous.

Oh this is now about about the benefit of heard immunity?

Or if infection through heard immunity requires vaccination?

The picture is still unclear is it not. With it being a novel virus. It may also depend on which variant a person had and how badly.

This week the government started to test 1000s of positive PCR individuals to track and understand what happens to antibodies for various groups and ages so hopefully we will know in due course.

Heard immunity concerns (for the currently uninfected) in the Places with high numbers: viral load (for example in schools with no mitigation), long covid, getting seasonal flu and covid at the same time, other long term impacts of the disease that are not yet understood, secondary infections, other severe reactions like IPT and blood clots, overwhelmed health service and…new mutations

[quote AlixandraTheGreat]@bumbleymummy

Yes, many people in Australia will not actually have natural immunity so it may not apply as much over there - yet - but people on this thread are discussing their opinions on the situation in the U.K. as well so that is why I’ve asked their opinion. I think it’s interesting (and relevant) to find out people’s views irt vaccine status/immune status in healthcare settings.

The particular situation in the OP was somewhat more complex than that, as is the current Australian/NSW state. You don't live here and are not embedded in our cultural and social conventions nor are you aware of the health status of our elderly, vulnerable, indigenous community, or young people. Need I go on? As much as you may say you're "asking for opinions", it's fairly clear what you're actually doing. You're for immunity via infection for healthy people/children (although I don't how you can possibly identify them from the outside.) This is what is dangerous.[/quote]
Again, I’ve already said that there won’t be too many people in Australia who this will apply to (it’s literally at the top of the quote) but, again, people have commented with their opinions on the current situation in the U.K. where it would apply to more people.

I’m ‘for immunity’ via natural infection? I didn’t realise we had to pick a side and can only support natural immunity or the vaccine

Regardless of what you think I’m doing I’m actually just saying that I think it’s acceptable for people who already have immunity because of natural infection to be able to keep their jobs even if they don’t want the vaccine. I’m wondering if those who have said they agree with mandatory vaccination for health workers here in the UK would feel the same.

Vaccination is already mandatory. You mean adding to the list for the already employed.

No don’t agree. For new ones entering the profession, maybe.

Natural infection, if antibodies are present why not. But it’s unclear on how long this lasts. There’s more data and therefore (en masse strategies for jabbed population so that’s easier to manage)

@bumbleymummy

Again, I’ve already said that there won’t be too many people in Australia who this will apply to (it’s literally at the top of the quote) but, again, people have commented with their opinions on the current situation in the U.K. where it would apply to more people.

I’m ‘for immunity’ via natural infection? I didn’t realise we had to pick a side and can only support natural immunity or the vaccine

Regardless of what you think I’m doing I’m actually just saying that I think it’s acceptable for people who already have immunity because of natural infection to be able to keep their jobs even if they don’t want the vaccine. I’m wondering if those who have said they agree with mandatory vaccination for health workers here in the UK would feel the same.

Trying to have a discussion with you is like trying to grab smoke. It moves away from your hand and is ultimately pointless.

Maybe just stick to having a conversation about my actual points then rather than making things up in your head that you think I’m saying and trying to argue against them. You’re basically arguing against your own imagination so yeah, I can imagine that’s pretty difficult and pointless.

@Lelivre There is actually quite a lot of data now showing that immunity lasts over 9 months in the majority and some data showing it last for up to 12. It will be interesting to see if some policies start to be changed based on the information coming out from these studies.

@bumbleymummy

Maybe just stick to having a conversation about my actual points then rather than making things up in your head that you think I’m saying and trying to argue against them. You’re basically arguing against your own imagination so yeah, I can imagine that’s pretty difficult and pointless.

@Lelivre There is actually quite a lot of data now showing that immunity lasts over 9 months in the majority and some data showing it last for up to 12. It will be interesting to see if some policies start to be changed based on the information coming out from these studies.

And there you go again ... it's just not worth the effort.

Yes, dear

It’s not complicated. The vaccine programme (I am a vaccinator) has been a huge success. Everyone should have their vaccinations. If your employer decides to make it mandatory you can decide to have the vaccinations or leave. It’s no different than my nephews schools and nurseries in the US requiring the chicken pox vaccination before they could attend.

But you don’t need to get the chickenpox vaccine if you have evidence of immunity -

www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/varicella/public/index.html

@bumbleymummy I haven’t seen those. However this must have been wuhan or alpha for 9-12 months to be counted but does it afford protection against other variants. I thought those who has been infected again it tended to be a different variant or mild infection the first time but I don’t know.

I suppose in due course we will know despite the % of vaccinated increasing by looking at younger children. Or perhaps the states resisting vaccination in the US as both groups will potentially encounter new variants.

LeLivre, it included delta. Iirc the preprint from Sweden showed good protection against alpha and delta but less towards 2 other variants.

[quote bumbleymummy]But you don’t need to get the chickenpox vaccine if you have evidence of immunity -

www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/varicella/public/index.html[/quote]
I think you're missing the fact immunity to different pathogens is variable, so you cannot automatically make direct comparisons. Chickenpox is not a great comparator at all.

Immunity to varicella tends to be robust and long lasting no matter how mild the symptoms are, and it's extremely unusual to get it twice because of this. That's why the CDC state you don't need to be vaccination to bolster immunity or gain further protection after infection.

*vaccinated

The UK doesn’t vax against CP does it bar shingles for elderly.

In fact I'm really I'm really confused as to why you're using chickenpox as an example at all, given that 'flu is a much more relevant comparator.

Hint - we don't recommend that individuals with a previous 'flu infection have no need to be vacccinated

@ollyollyoxenfree I didn’t. Parker did. I was replying to his/her post.

Is it this study? It is ever so small (140?) and appears to be more compelling for serious cases.

Still more data will be forthcoming.

It would be nice to know for my kids if they get it which sees likely.

www.news-medical.net/news/20210627/Swedish-study-reveals-how-long-immunity-lasts-after-mild-COVID.aspx

[quote bumbleymummy]@ollyollyoxenfree I didn’t. Parker did. I was replying to his/her post.[/quote]
Nope, @Parker231 mentioned a type of vaccine policy - ie the requirement for chickenpox vaccine for children in certain situations in the US.

You then, disingenuously, led it back to the idea that a previous infection means vaccination is unnecessary, which isn't relevant to COVID or the current thread, but does fit in nicely with your continual pushing of the claim that people don't need to be vaccinated against coronavirus if they've had a previous infection.