Mandatory Covid vaccine

[Aldilogue]

Hello all.
I'm a nurse in regional NSW. Where I live we have not had a Covid case for 500 days. I work in a private hospital on a surgical ward ( all elective surgeries) mainly orthopaedic surgery but also gastric sleeves, urinary, hysterectomies and sone medical patients as the public hospital is full and we get some overflow.
Our government has released a public health order stating all healthcare workers who work in NSW need to have at least once dose of AstraZeneca or Pfizer before September 30. If you do not you "will be excluded from the workplace".
I'm interested in opinions as I know it's not mandatory in the Uk.

Nice little dig at the end if your post Alixandrathegreat I can still transmit it if I'm vaccinated.
What do I do then? Is that my fault too? Slim chance due to PPE but isn't that your argument.
As an aside if the vaccine is such a game changer why aren't people knocking down doors to get it. Why do they need to be blackmailed?

@Aldilogue

Nice little dig at the end if your post Alixandrathegreat I can still transmit it if I'm vaccinated. What do I do then? Is that my fault too? Slim chance due to PPE but isn't that your argument. As an aside if the vaccine is such a game changer why aren't people knocking down doors to get it. Why do they need to be blackmailed?

Your chance of catching the virus and then transmitting it to someone else is much reduced if you are vaccinated.

I'm yet to hear of anyone being blackmailed? Was that the term you meant to use?

For someone who says they've been vaccinated you seem to be quite against it.

No it's not mandatory in the UK. But there is a lot of support for it in the NHS to be mandatory.
If you work with the clinically vulnerable you should be made to have it no arguments. Don't want it don't have it but it should be clear that should be a cause for the employer to terminate the employment of the individual refusing to have it.

As stated numerous times I'm against mandatory vaccination. Not the vaccine itself!!!
Why are you trying to start an argument?
Blackmail: do what we say otherwise you can work here!

cant

It’s sad that it has needed to become mandatory for some organisations. We’ve had long enough now to see the benefits of the vaccinations. People should be having it because it saves lives

The fact is, where cases are low there will be a considerable amount of people resistant to taking it. I think in the uk so many of us were “yes please” because we knew someone who had suffered or died from it and people were dying in their 1000s.

When Delta hits and this starts happening, and your mum or grandad dies in hospital or a care home, will you be so resistant?

I think the attitude in regional NSW may change.

You can’t keep it away forever, what’s starting to happen in Australia is what happened here two years ago, like many things in Australia you catch up with the rest of the world a bit later.

@Aldilogue

As stated numerous times I'm against mandatory vaccination. Not the vaccine itself!!! Why are you trying to start an argument? Blackmail: do what we say otherwise you can work here!

It's OK - I misunderstood you as you wrote this:

As an aside if the vaccine is such a game changer why aren't people knocking down doors to get it. Why do they need to be blackmailed?

So, to me, it sounded like you were talking about people (in general, mot just nurses) lining up for vaccination - as they generally are in NSW right now, at least in the the coastal areas.

However, the vaccine is a game changer. You're a nurse and I assume you work with many older people - they're the ones that tend to come for hip replacements and the like, yes? They're vulnerable and yes, you're part of the effort to protect the people you care for.

@rightenough

a) they are far less likely to need medical assistance and so the chance of the healthcare system becoming overwhelmed is massively reduced;

Even if b) was not true, a) would be a good enough reason on its own. Unless unvaccinated people also waive their right to medical treatment.

By that logic, so do people will healthy BMI's though?

Covid has been around 18months -- plenty of time to get yourself into a healthy BMI if you weren't already, right?

So why don't we make weight loss mandatory?

Unless all the overweight people also waive their right to medical treatment?

Why wouldn't we do that?

Because you can't catch being overweight by walking past someone who is coughing 🤦‍♀️🤷🏿

It’s not unusual for health care staff to have to have had certain vaccines. Just because surgery is elective doesn’t mean it’s not necessary. I’d expect all staff in a hospital to be fully vaccinated unless they couldn’t be for medical reasons.

For people saying that it should be mandatory for healthcare staff. What if they have already had coronavirus? I know some will argue that they don’t know that the person is definitely immune but we don’t know that someone is definitely immune after the vaccine either and we accept that. There are several studies that show durable immunity after infection and that reinfection is rare.

@bumbleymummy
It may work in the country like UK that so many people already had virus. But I don't think it works in OP's case, where there were no cases over 500 days. Once it hit the place, it's too late for natural immunity to develop, isn't it?

I agree as a nurse it should be a condition of employment to protect patient's and staff alike. However, we should not be made to have it no argument, as someone eloquently put it.

Just out of interest though, by virtue of this, should patients not have to prove they have been vaccinated to protect other patient's and staff. We allow visitors in our trust how do I know they are vaccinated and not bringing it to the very people I am trying to protect?
That's the only thing I find difficult unless for medical reasons you cannot have it off course. The main patients in ITU are unvaccinated so staff who may be vulnerable have no choice but to look after them. There are not enough staff to put the vulnerable with the vaccinated patient's sadly.

@bumbleymummy

For people saying that it should be mandatory for healthcare staff. What if they have already had coronavirus? I know some will argue that they don’t know that the person is definitely immune but we don’t know that someone is definitely immune after the vaccine either and we accept that. There are several studies that show durable immunity after infection and that reinfection is rare.

In this case, I agree with you, infection proven by an antibody test or recent PCR should certainly count the same as vaccination for confirming immunity.

I believe those staff would be safer themselves getting a vaccine plus any boosters to increase their immunity, but their previous infection should be sufficient to reduce transmission risk to patients. Any action in this area really needs to be kept proportionate.

“In this case, I agree with you” wow, that doesn’t happen very often

@bumbleymummy

For people saying that it should be mandatory for healthcare staff. What if they have already had coronavirus? I know some will argue that they don’t know that the person is definitely immune but we don’t know that someone is definitely immune after the vaccine either and we accept that. There are several studies that show durable immunity after infection and that reinfection is rare.

You might want to RTFT. Your comment doesn't really apply in this case, in this area, in this state, and this country.

You might want to RTFT. Your comment doesn't really apply in this case, in this area, in this state, and this country.

Quite - and NZ is somewhere where you really don't want to be encouraging people people to get infected to gain immunity. This is a policy that many governments have taken when it came to immunity passports - that you don't want to have a immunologically naive population who are effectively "rewarded" for getting coronavirus. It is different in countries where a larger proportion have already been infected.

The proportion of Australians who have had a previous infection is incredibly low and the WHO and others have explained why the process of getting to population-level immunity via infection when we have safe vaccination is a very bad idea. It puts unnecessary risk on both the individual and the wider population.

Correct that first one to Aus not NZ - but applies to both countries and anywhere else with immunologically naive populations

But why not shoehorn natural immunity over vaccination into yet another thread even when inappropriate to the situation eh?

@AlixandraTheGreat I have. Plenty of people talking about our experience in the U.K. - the OP did ask for opinions from here.

No, it’s not as common in Australia for people to be infected yet but seeing as the virus is going to be around for a while it makes sense to think through these possibilities. And again, people here are giving their opinion on U.K. policy too.

Not over vaccination, salted. As an alternative. That’s pretty clear from my post.

[quote bumbleymummy]@AlixandraTheGreat I have. Plenty of people talking about our experience in the U.K. - the OP did ask for opinions from here.

No, it’s not as common in Australia for people to be infected yet but seeing as the virus is going to be around for a while it makes sense to think through these possibilities. And again, people here are giving their opinion on U.K. policy too.

Not over vaccination, salted. As an alternative. That’s pretty clear from my post.[/quote]
Yep, and as I explained in my post, infection over vaccination is not recommended by anyone, and therefore there are real problems with including a previous infection as an alternative to vaccination in populations with a low proportion of previously infected people, as this can encourage people to gain immunity via infection.

Good to hear your opinion on it salted. Others may think differently. I, for one, would have no problem with someone having immunity from either vaccination or infection.

I haven’t suggested that it should be recommended as a policy. I would just hate to see someone lose their job when they are already immune and not a risk to those in their care.

@bumbleymummy

Good to hear your opinion on it salted. Others may think differently. I, for one, would have no problem with someone having immunity from either vaccination or infection.

I haven’t suggested that it should be recommended as a policy. I would just hate to see someone lose their job when they are already immune and not a risk to those in their care.

I don't think you understand, or are deliberately trying to dismiss this viewpoint which isn't just mine but that of WHO and all other public health bodies.

It is not "having a problem with someone having immunity from either vaccination or infections" (rolling my eyes), it is when you're considering a relatively immunologically naive population like aus or NZ, offering a previous infection as an alternative to vaccination is not recommended, as it encourages people to behave more riskily, and deliberately get infection to gain their immunity pass.

I am not talking about countries like the UK or US, where varying levels of immunity from infection have already been conferred. But this was pretty clear in my posts.

Thanks for your reply, salted. Just to remind you, my original post was simply a question directed at people who think the vaccine should be mandatory for health workers and asking what their opinion is irt people who are already immune after infection. As I said, it is interesting to hear your viewpoint. Other people may have different ones and it would be interesting to hear theirs as well.

@bumbleymummy

Thanks for your reply, salted. Just to remind you, my original post was simply a question directed at people who think the vaccine should be mandatory for health workers and asking what their opinion is irt people who are already immune after infection. As I said, it is interesting to hear your viewpoint. Other people may have different ones and it would be interesting to hear theirs as well.

As I keep saying, you're attempting to dismiss my posts, but this isn't simply my viewpoint, it is that of WHO and all other public health bodies.

This thread is about the situation in Australia. In populations where this a very low proportion of people with a history of infection, suggesting that people do not need to be vaccinated if they have a previous infection, is not recommended specifically because it encourages people to expose themselves to coronavirus.

(In addition - which you seem to blithely ignore - even outside of immunologically naive populations, no one is recommending that people do not need to be vaccinated after infection, although it is a different conversation).