Mandatory Covid vaccine

[Aldilogue]

Hello all.
I'm a nurse in regional NSW. Where I live we have not had a Covid case for 500 days. I work in a private hospital on a surgical ward ( all elective surgeries) mainly orthopaedic surgery but also gastric sleeves, urinary, hysterectomies and sone medical patients as the public hospital is full and we get some overflow.
Our government has released a public health order stating all healthcare workers who work in NSW need to have at least once dose of AstraZeneca or Pfizer before September 30. If you do not you "will be excluded from the workplace".
I'm interested in opinions as I know it's not mandatory in the Uk.

Fact remains that patients who have been double vaccinated are more a risk to unvaccinated hospital staff than the reverse.

Does it though? I was in hospital this week. I almost died from sepsis. I had to have emergency surgery, was in icu and on many many medications. I'm just home and am now struggling to even get to the bathroom and back to bed. I was a previously a very healthy 35 year old woman. I don't fancy my chances against covid if I caught it right now my body is wrecked. A lot of the nurses and drs that treated me were about my age, if they are healthy I'm not sure that I stand a better chance against covid than they do vaccinated or not.

@Aldilogue

I'm totally down the middle. If people are vaccinated I think good on you, do want you think is right for you. If someone is not vaccinated I think they have their reasons and have genuine concerns as to why. These reasons aren't always black and white. My issue is the unelected health minister decided that health workers will be excluded from their workplace if they do not comply with his orders. I'm pro choice not pro vax or anti vax. I'm talking about choice being removed not just vax status. MN holds very strong views and I'm interested if people had thought that this may happen to them.

I agree but I know a healthcare setting where one individual didn’t want to vaccine. Which no one made an issue of but due to this third wave they brought it into the environment and some clinicians became ill all at once because of the individual initially attending work whilst ill and not showing the typical symptoms at first. The other staff are jabbed and not too bad but because the rules are different for healthcare settings they are excluded from the workplace and it has impacted service hugely and almost shut them down.

I'm double vaccinated, but really not comfortable with people effectively being forced to be vaccinated.
(As in excluding from workplaces, or barred from restaurants/concerts etc)
It should always be personal choice.

@Parker231

Should be mandatory everywhere for anyone in a health care setting. Unvaccinated people are putting others at risk.

Vaccinated people can still put others at risk too. Some unvaccinated people are immune. It’s not a black and white issue.

A vaccinated person has a lower chance of getting Covid and therefore a lesser chance of transmitted it. A vaccinated person still can get Covid but a much lower chance of becoming seriously ill and needing hospital treatment .

It’s not complicated - get vaccinated!

Unvaccinated people are putting others at risk.

This is the part I was replying to.

Really it's only an issue if you think you know more than all the regulatory authorities of all the countries around the world, the scientists working on this, the pharmaceutical companies working on this and the multitude of vaccination expert committees around the world.
Not many people are expert enough to claim that.

You just don't want the vaccination. But presumably you have had plenty of other vaccinations in your life, especially if you work in healthcare.

90% of those in ICU in the UK are unvaccinated. Did not object to being mechanically ventilated with high levels of multiple drugs being administered at cost of thousands a day to the NHS and high chances of long-lasting physical and mental health effects for months/years to come.

I’m double vaccinated, but really not comfortable with people effectively being forced to be vaccinated.

Where I am, you have to prove you have been double vaccinated even to enter shops. The alternative is to prove that you have had a negative LFT within the last three days. You have to pay for an LFT, so refusing the vaccine can get expensive quickly.

OP in my opinion you should not be pressured in any way. That is quite repugnant to me.

But if the healthcare workforce is protected by vaccination (putting aside the extent to which others are impacted which is proving difficult to quantify with Delta) hopefully it should create some resilience and serve to maintain service during the pandemic. Although your area is elective if things escalate perhaps clinicians will be asked to help meet demand elsewhere.

The alternative is to prove that you have had a negative LFT within the last three days. You have to pay for an LFT, so refusing the vaccine can get expensive quickly.

How awful. So freedom of choice is only possibly if you can afford it?

Possible*

I don’t like the concept of anything mandatory that is health related. However, I do not believe that Australia will be able to control the spread of Delta. If you get big outbreaks in hospitals amongst staff then the whole health care system collapses. Last year in U.K. PPE became compulsory but we didn’t have a vaccine. If we had a vaccine at the time it is possible that it would have become compulsory in hospitals in U.K. at the time too. It still isn’t compulsory as there has been so much prior exposure in hospital staff plus most got vaccinated voluntarily. However, we might soon have this same debate in U.K. too when it comes to
Boosters (although there is also lots of talk of antibody testing).

You may not have had a case for 500 days but at some point, you will have a case and it will spread in your community. You don't want everyone to be rushing for a vaccine at that point as it takes 2 doses and then a further few weeks for it to be fully effective. Your hospitals would be overrun and you would see deaths. You want to be ahead of the game with this, not starting on the back foot. Australia had an 18 month head start on the virus with its locked borders and they wasted it and are now playing catch up. I'm in WA and we've had very few cases throughout the whole pandemic. I work in frontline healthcare and will be fully vaxxed by next week as I want to be as protected as possible when the borders open (Mark M ever allows that!). You do have a choice...get the vax or get another job! It may not be the choice you want but it is a choice!

I just can’t understand how anybody supports this. At the start of this year when nobody knew whether the vaccines would stop transmission, or at least reduce it, or how long they would last I can understand why people bought into the idea that getting vaccinated was for your own protection and that of everybody else’s.

However, now that several studies have shown that vaccinated people can still contract, pass on and hold the same amount of viral load as an unvaccinated person then this argument absolutely falls on it’s face. The vaccine is now only good for personal protection (seemingly for a limited duration) and every citizen should be totally free to decide whether they are vaccinated or not based on their own personal risk factors.
The idea that being vaccinated keeps others safe is ludicrous and the fact that several countries are denying basic freedoms to those who wish not to be vaccinated is abhorrent and frankly criminal. It makes zero scientific sense and once again I will repeat that I can’t understand how anyone is still buying into the idea that everyone must be vaccinated based on the claim that this will protect those around you.

Just look at highly vaccinated countries like Israel, Malta, Iceland and even the uk. All going through another wave of infection, including large numbers of the vaccinated population.

Additionally, why is recovery and natural immunity not counted? This link summarises at least 15 studies from around the world which show that natural immunity is hugely more robust than the vaccine and that it’s almost impossible for someone with natural immunity to catch covid again or be able to pass it on.
www.theblaze.com/amp/horowitz-15-studies-that-indicate-natural-immunity-from-prior-infection-is-more-robust-than-the-covid-vaccines-2654789339?__twitter_impression=true

With the above being the case, those testing positive for previous infection will be safer sitting next to you or treating you in a hospital than someone who has been vaccinated and is yet to be infected. And those recovered people may not be vaccinated!

We really need to question mandates like this because it doesn’t make any scientific sense and is a forced medical procedure.

Well it’s not mandatory strictly speaking is it?

It’s not “govt says you must be vaccinated”. It’s “govt says you must be vaccinated if you want to continue in X Y or Z jobs”.

I appreciate that’s a very hard choice and most people can’t afford to give up their job. But it’s not quite the same as a mandatory vaccine.

As a PP says You do have a choice...get the vax or get another job! It may not be the choice you want but it is a choice!

It feels wrong to me that patients have choice but health care professionals don't. Or that CH residents can say no but Care home staff must be vaccinated (they form a community, and residents spend far more time with other residents than they do with any staff).

I don't want compulsory vaccination for anyone, but if there is coercion, carrots or sticks, they should be spread widely, not focused only on a few.

twitter.com/sailorrooscout?s=21

I suggest everyone follows this scientist- good easy to understand information

I have to be vaccinated for tetanus, hep B and rabies to do my job. Of course, I'm free to seek alternative employment.

As for nurses, think of it from the hospitals pov. In the midst of an outbreak they need their staff fit for work and not spreading COVID to vulnerable patients. The vaccine wont guarentee either of those but it will help, and will at least stop ICU beds being filled with health staff.

I just can’t understand how anybody supports this. At the start of this year when nobody knew whether the vaccines would stop transmission, or at least reduce it, or how long they would last I can understand why people bought into the idea that getting vaccinated was for your own protection and that of everybody else’s.

However, now that several studies have shown that vaccinated people can still contract, pass on and hold the same amount of viral load as an unvaccinated person then this argument absolutely falls on it’s face. The vaccine is now only good for personal protection (seemingly for a limited duration) and every citizen should be totally free to decide whether they are vaccinated or not based on their own personal risk factors.

Vaccinated people can still catch it and spread it yes. But they get it far less severely than unvaccinated people. This means
a) they are far less likely to need medical assistance and so the chance of the healthcare system becoming overwhelmed is massively reduced;
b) they generally shed less virus - yes some vaccinated will shed just as much virus as some unvaccinated people, but mostly they shed less. They have fewer symptoms and recover quicker so will be less likely to spread it.

Even if b) was not true, a) would be a good enough reason on its own. Unless unvaccinated people also waive their right to medical treatment.

I think some people confuse freedom of choice with freedom from consequences.

No one is forcing you to have a jab. You have the choice not to have it.

@Lostinacloud whilst I agree with the sentiment it is not entirely true that the choice only impacts the individual.

Vaccinated are significantly less likely to contract and therefore transmit.

It rather depends on the individual and the extent to which they are willing to put themselves at risk if they do not have natural immunity.

I do not want the OP or anyone to be forced to do anything. But…Would you be ok with the OP assisting in your elderly parent’s surgery if you knew that they had no form of immunity no negative test results that day and had been to Boardmasters the previous weekend?

Covid study app shared this recently

Well it’s not mandatory strictly speaking is it?

It’s not “govt says you must be vaccinated”. It’s “govt says you must be vaccinated if you want to continue in X Y or Z jobs”.

I appreciate that’s a very hard choice and most people can’t afford to give up their job. But it’s not quite the same as a mandatory vaccine.

Okay so it's not mandatory but it's definitely coercion, isn't it?

My boss says I have to sleep with him or he's going to fire me.

MN: well that's your choice isn't it? You can choose not to sleep with your boss but equally your boss can choose to fire you so.... see? CHOICE!

a) they are far less likely to need medical assistance and so the chance of the healthcare system becoming overwhelmed is massively reduced;

Even if b) was not true, a) would be a good enough reason on its own. Unless unvaccinated people also waive their right to medical treatment.

By that logic, so do people will healthy BMI's though?

Covid has been around 18months -- plenty of time to get yourself into a healthy BMI if you weren't already, right?

So why don't we make weight loss mandatory?

Unless all the overweight people also waive their right to medical treatment?

Why wouldn't we do that?

@rightenough

Well it’s not mandatory strictly speaking is it?

It’s not “govt says you must be vaccinated”. It’s “govt says you must be vaccinated if you want to continue in X Y or Z jobs”.

I appreciate that’s a very hard choice and most people can’t afford to give up their job. But it’s not quite the same as a mandatory vaccine.

Okay so it's not mandatory but it's definitely coercion, isn't it?

My boss says I have to sleep with him or he's going to fire me.

MN: well that's your choice isn't it? You can choose not to sleep with your boss but equally your boss can choose to fire you so.... see? CHOICE!

No it's more like My boss says I have to fulfil the requirements of the job safely with regard to the safety of my colleagues and patients.

Which is literally part of a bosses job.