Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Covid

Mumsnet doesn't verify the qualifications of users. If you have medical concerns, please consult a healthcare professional.

Will you be angry if we end up back in lockdown?

768 replies

turnshavetabled · 27/08/2021 08:27

/ harsh restrictions?

I feel so tired of this all - but mostly tired of feeling lied to by the government. The false promises - 'irreversible' 'final lockdown until science / the vaccines can save the day'

And Scotland are already floating more restrictions, only a few weeks after reopening. It's gutting. I wish they would just tell us what the probably already know is likely to happen over the next few months.

OP posts:
NannyAndJohn · 05/09/2021 12:17

[quote Quartz2208]@NannyAndJohn any government that used any poll as a basis for policy is not one that I would want

It an interesting question asked isn’t it restrictions (not lockdown) if hospitals are facing significant pressure

What does that mean though? For you Nanny it’s clear you think it’s now but is it? The NHS (and other countries health systems) are always under pressure appointments can always be filled people will always visit A&E what is the question asking.

Most of us faced with that are going to go well presumably those in charge will know when that is so we will say yes.

It is a fairly meaningless question because it is so broad

Lockdown are simply not the answer now - look at Australia once it is bedded in its far to shake

Some measures like NCBlossom sets out plus I think compulsory isolation if a household member has it are sensible. We have relaxed isolation rules too much

Covid is here and it isn’t going anywhere[/quote]
Hospitals are facing significant pressure if:

Doctors and nurses are relieved from their usual duties to treat Covid patients.

Which they currently are.

Urgent operations are being cancelled because of Covid.

Which they currently are.

Waxonwaxoff0 · 05/09/2021 12:17

@cantkeepawayforever

It's an interesting question - does disinterested charity exist?

When people arrange collections of clothes etc for Afghan refugees, are they helping anonymous strangers (primarily) or making themselves feel good (primarily)?

Would we, as a family, support 'anonymous strangers' if it made us feel terrible? Is it right to say that our help for them is wrong because it has a positive impact on a member of the family as well? Is charity / support only valid if it comes with an equivalent hair shirt for the donor?

It's not wrong. But you can't expect everyone else to keep doing it.
NannyAndJohn · 05/09/2021 12:18

@rookiemere See above.

NannyAndJohn · 05/09/2021 12:20

Law of Large Numbers, @Waxonwaxoff0. Polling companies use a mathematically proven statistical formula to ensure that their poll findings are within a suitable margin of error of the true population.

IcedPurple · 05/09/2021 12:26

@cantkeepawayforever

It's an interesting question - does disinterested charity exist?

When people arrange collections of clothes etc for Afghan refugees, are they helping anonymous strangers (primarily) or making themselves feel good (primarily)?

Would we, as a family, support 'anonymous strangers' if it made us feel terrible? Is it right to say that our help for them is wrong because it has a positive impact on a member of the family as well? Is charity / support only valid if it comes with an equivalent hair shirt for the donor?

Yes, some philosophers will argue that nothing we do is ever truly altruistic, as even when engaging in charitable activities with no obvious practical benefit to ourselves, we still get to feel good for doing so.

But in the case of lockdowns, it wasn't simply psychological benefits. Everyone, or almost everyone, needed the NHS to remain functional. So it wasn't simply about helping 'anonymous strangers'. There have always been and always will be 'anonymous strangers' in need of help. You could say it was enlightened self-interest more than anything else. But once the initial emergency has passed, people will no longer wish to make sacrifices if they don't see any obvious benefits in so doing. That was always going to be the case.

cantkeepawayforever · 05/09/2021 12:42

But once the initial emergency has passed, people will no longer wish to make sacrifices if they don't see any obvious benefits in so doing. That was always going to be the case.

I think that is understandable, if sad.

The difficulty comes when somebody doing 'what is right for their family' prevents others that they come into contact with 'doing what is right for their family' - where the understandable priority given to one's own tiny group is actively harmful, rather than passively neutral, to someone else.

If we take the non-Covid example of climate change, can we expect those whose immediate family circle LIKES having a large, powerful car to make a compromise because that car's emissions cause damage to the environment for others?

Or can we only expect change when the effects of that environmental change are so catastrophically large at an individual family level that they outweigh their pleasure, comfort and enjoyment in the large car?

cantkeepawayforever · 05/09/2021 12:43

(Or, I suppose, that we make the financial cost - ie the damage in a different form - to the family of having such a car so large that it prompts behavioural change.)

NothingIsWrong · 05/09/2021 12:51

@NannyAndJohn

Hospitals face significant pressure every winter. Every winter my local one is asking people not to attend if the don't have to, every winter operations are cancelled because of lack of beds. Every winter staff are diverted to look after flu/RSV/pneumonia patients.

IcedPurple · 05/09/2021 12:53

I think that is understandable, if sad.

I don't think it's sad. It's the way all societies, everywhere, function.

The difficulty comes when somebody doing 'what is right for their family' prevents others that they come into contact with 'doing what is right for their family' - where the understandable priority given to one's own tiny group is actively harmful, rather than passively neutral, to someone else.

But in a world of limited resources, this is always going to be the case. If you push for your child to get a place at a popular school, for example, then someone else's equally deserving child isn't going to get that place. If you accept a job then someone else isn't going to get that job, and perhaps that someone else is objectively much more in need of it than you. If you spend money on things that you LIKE rather than give it to charity, others will suffer so that you can enjoy friviolities.

And so on and so forth. The fact that virtually all of us really only care about ourselves and our families is not new.

Or can we only expect change when the effects of that environmental change are so catastrophically large at an individual family level that they outweigh their pleasure, comfort and enjoyment in the large car?

Realistically, yes.

In fact I've often compared people's attitudes to the environment to the pandemic. People will always tell pollsters that 'more should be done' but in practice they'll rarely be prepared to make significant, let alone ongoing, sacrifices to their own lives. We've seen that so often over the past 19 months. Those chastising others for being 'selfish' for participating in a certain activity - going to the pub, travelling or whatever is today's 'selfish' activity - invariably don't enjoy that activity themselves. So they aren't actually making any sacrifice. They just feel good about feeling morally superior to others.

cantkeepawayforever · 05/09/2021 13:18

I think you are right.

DD's positivity in the first lockdown was explicitly because she saw society, as she saw it 'working together' - and this gave her hope about how society might meet the challenges of climate change that are likely to dominate global politics etc in her lifetime.

The only-too-ephemeral nature of this 'togetherness in the face of a common threat' is one factor in her subsequent despair.

Quartz2208 · 05/09/2021 14:04

That is your interpretation though @NannyAndJohn and may well not be the interpretation of all - plus with the addition of the use of restrictions rather than lockdown it becomes as much a question of semantics

Recently as well polls haven’t been quite as useful as predicting as before - quite a lot of people answering how they think they should or are wanting to rather than actually answering

ButteringMyArse · 05/09/2021 14:27

Also, would these people be prepared to pay through their taxes and/or put up with reduced public services to pay for these restrictions they tell pollsters they want? Because that's the real question.

Bingo.

People often interpret 'do you support X and Y restrictions' as a question about whether they people should or shouldn't be doing. Whether they ought to be refraining from things the person being asked probably doesn't view as important anyway. Nightclubs, sporting events, singing in church, whatever.

They don't necessarily realise that what this question is actually asking is how much would you be willing to cough up in order to have a police force with sufficient numbers to enforce these restrictions in any meaningful way, and to pay the people whose livelihoods you're fucking off if you implement them. Because if you want restrictions going forward, those things are essential. Or they'll fail.

IcedPurple · 05/09/2021 14:38

@ButteringMyArse

Also, would these people be prepared to pay through their taxes and/or put up with reduced public services to pay for these restrictions they tell pollsters they want? Because that's the real question.

Bingo.

People often interpret 'do you support X and Y restrictions' as a question about whether they people should or shouldn't be doing. Whether they ought to be refraining from things the person being asked probably doesn't view as important anyway. Nightclubs, sporting events, singing in church, whatever.

They don't necessarily realise that what this question is actually asking is how much would you be willing to cough up in order to have a police force with sufficient numbers to enforce these restrictions in any meaningful way, and to pay the people whose livelihoods you're fucking off if you implement them. Because if you want restrictions going forward, those things are essential. Or they'll fail.

Yes.

I've said before that when many people casually say 'I think we should keep social distancing', what they really mean is that they like having a free seat next to them on the bus, or having a waiter bring you your drink rather than having to order at the bar. Which is great, but these measures cost money and in some cases make businesses unviable.

Would they be prepared to pay for that extra seat on the bus? Or fork out a substantial mark up for that drink brought to their table? Just to be 'safe'? Or do they simply want to keep getting superior service for free?

It's all very well saying 'restrictions should remain' but these restrictions cost money - lots of it - and somebody has to pay.

ButteringMyArse · 05/09/2021 14:48

Yes that's an interesting point. There are parts of SD that worked for me and mine. I enjoyed venues having limited numbers and being less crowded, and as I'm quite organised the booking ahead wasn't really a problem.

But if I liked that enough to want it to continue, eg if I wanted to go to eg a theme park or a zoo admitting only 50% capacity on a particular day or whatever for an enhanced experience, I'd need to understand that this creates a cost to be borne somewhere. It would come out of someone's pocket. In this case it should be the customer.

Feelingmardy · 05/09/2021 14:49

In fact I've often compared people's attitudes to the environment to the pandemic. People will always tell pollsters that 'more should be done' but in practice they'll rarely be prepared to make significant, let alone ongoing, sacrifices to their own lives. We've seen that so often over the past 19 months. Those chastising others for being 'selfish' for participating in a certain activity - going to the pub, travelling or whatever is today's 'selfish' activity - invariably don't enjoy that activity themselves. So they aren't actually making any sacrifice. They just feel good about feeling morally superior to others.

So true! People are so much better at telling others what they should do than putting themselves out. I have a friend who was pushing for earlier and severe lockdown. When it came, he had his 6 year old at home for a week before he secured a 'keyworker' place based on the fact that his partner was a keyworker. He worked in IT and from home. He was no more in need of a place for the child than most other families. He basically found looking after his child all a bit much. He still can't see the massive hypocrisy of his situation!

ButteringMyArse · 05/09/2021 15:01

Ugh what an absolute twat.

Feelingmardy · 05/09/2021 15:58

Totally agree. I've been irrationally angry about this for more than a year. Or maybe rationally angry.

countrygirl99 · 05/09/2021 16:35

@NannyAndJohn

Law of Large Numbers, *@Waxonwaxoff0*. Polling companies use a mathematically proven statistical formula to ensure that their poll findings are within a suitable margin of error of the true population.
Clear hasn't worked for recent elections though.
Bizawit · 05/09/2021 17:09

@Feelingmardy

In fact I've often compared people's attitudes to the environment to the pandemic. People will always tell pollsters that 'more should be done' but in practice they'll rarely be prepared to make significant, let alone ongoing, sacrifices to their own lives. We've seen that so often over the past 19 months. Those chastising others for being 'selfish' for participating in a certain activity - going to the pub, travelling or whatever is today's 'selfish' activity - invariably don't enjoy that activity themselves. So they aren't actually making any sacrifice. They just feel good about feeling morally superior to others.

So true! People are so much better at telling others what they should do than putting themselves out. I have a friend who was pushing for earlier and severe lockdown. When it came, he had his 6 year old at home for a week before he secured a 'keyworker' place based on the fact that his partner was a keyworker. He worked in IT and from home. He was no more in need of a place for the child than most other families. He basically found looking after his child all a bit much. He still can't see the massive hypocrisy of his situation!

Omg absolutely classic. What a t*!
NannyAndJohn · 05/09/2021 17:28

[quote NothingIsWrong]@NannyAndJohn

Hospitals face significant pressure every winter. Every winter my local one is asking people not to attend if the don't have to, every winter operations are cancelled because of lack of beds. Every winter staff are diverted to look after flu/RSV/pneumonia patients.[/quote]
So you think we should have restrictions every winter?

I can definitely see your point - instead of treating Covid like flu, which the "cool crowd" want to do, we treat flu like Covid. Makes sense.

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 05/09/2021 17:33

Don't get too excited @NannyAndJohn, most sane people won't be treating the flu like Covid.

Quartz2208 · 05/09/2021 17:33

Interesting take on the semantics again @NannyAndJohn deliberately changing the meaning to suit your narrative

NothingIsWrong · 05/09/2021 17:35

No I do not think we should have restrictions every winter. Don't be facetious. I think the NHS should be funded properly and people should be allowed to live their lives.

Wishfulthinking1977 · 05/09/2021 18:32

I like most people I know would just not comply! I understand if businesses have to shut I can't use them, but as a pp has said that's OK as they go underground! The unfortunate things about this is that the lost revenue into the tax system and our ni contributions will again be massive! If furlough is brought back again (which it would have to be!) that's another huge dent Into the NHS funding! If privatisation of the NHS is what people want the restrictions and lockdowns are definitely the way to go! Where I live the population is 80% over 60,we have had 0 deaths, but we now have a massive shortage of carers in our nursing homes and the home care that we desperately need is on its knees! Both are asking for family to take over as carers are leaving due to enforced vaccinations! Our hospital is already pleading for staff! Our hospitals are coping fine apart from A&E due to most being referred by 111 as our GPS won't see anyone! Someone also said that polls support restrictions? I for one would love to see that in a real life study (alongside the real life study of mask efficiency!) As the small town I live in was rammed today! People trying to get into pubs, shops and restaurants no distancing! Very little mask wearing! Polls like data are controlled by the ultimate desired outcome, fed into by people, read by people and reported by people! And as we all know people are fallible!

myheartskippedabeat · 05/09/2021 19:17

I'm very fed up with it all and I think the government need to re-think a couple of things

  1. mask wearing still needs to be compulsory in all public places
  2. is someone in a household gets COVID the whole household still need to isolate it just the person otherwise it will keep spreading

As a side note
My childminder sent an email to all parents saying if anyone in the household had COVID eg parents she wouldn't accept the child as she needs to protect her setting and the children in it and her family - she has an elderly mother she cares for

I "replied to all" and said I completely understood - if she has to close she'll loose money and let people down and the rule of still taking children in contaminated households is just ridiculous

I was pleased when all the other mums emailed back in support of the child-minder

People are just being irresponsible

I know everyone is very fed up of it all but the issue is, it's still very much an issue