Page 7 | If you haven't been vaccinated (out of choice)

ollyollyoxenfree · 19/08/2021 18:56

@bumbleymummy

Do vulnerable people at high risk not fall into the category of all?

If only people who were very high risk of COVID had chosen to be vaccinated, it would have led to substantial more death

Nope. The top 9 priority groups accounted for ~99% of deaths according to JCVI

I don't think you understand the point that was being made, which clearly explained letting COVID reach high rates of transmission leads to non-COVID related deaths.

You also ignored the other valid points made regarding new variants of concern.

ollyollyoxenfree · 19/08/2021 18:59

@shewalkslikerihanna

Plus the death and serious side effects on the bears/ yellow card scheme certainly makes me think once twice and thrice
This seems to need to be said again and again. These are events that have occurred after vaccination, not events that are automatically due to vaccination. If no-one died (or miscarried, or was in a car crash) after being vaccinated, it would mean it was somehow protective against death (or miscarriage, or car crashes), which is clearly not the case. This schemes are used to work out if these events are occurring at rates higher than in the general population and therefore might be causal.

I look after my immune system
As do I, which includes providing it with helpful instructions on how to fight a novel coronavirus (and other infectious diseases)

shewalkslikerihanna · 19/08/2021 19:29

I look after my immune system
As do I, which includes providing it with helpful instructions on how to fight a novel coronavirus (and other infectious diseases)

Good, glad we are on the same page
Does that include sending off for ivermectin?

bumbleymummy · 19/08/2021 19:34

It seems that there are double standards when it comes to self reporting. Vaccine side effects reported in yellow card scheme -> not necessarily true/overestimation. Self reporting of ‘long COVID’ in the Zoe app -> completely accurate representation/under estimation of how big a problem it is.

ilovesooty · 19/08/2021 20:06

I'm sure many more people would have died if nobody had been vaccinated.

bumbleymummy · 19/08/2021 20:16

Yep. Particularly older/vulnerable people.

OhMickyYourSoFine · 19/08/2021 21:35

@Buzzinwithbez

How 'safe' do you feel?

Are you minimising your potential risk of covid?

How different is your life now than in typical years to 2019?

I think I'm mainly curious about whether people's life is different anyway after the last 18 months....
I know mine is. I went shopping yesterday and struggled with the lighting, the lack of available seating etc ... And I'm unlikely to be keen for a repeat experience for a while, so the way I spend my time is likely to be a lot different anyway, without even taking covid itself into consideration...

Are differences because things are slow to start up? because you've formed new habits anyway? Out of not wanting to contract covid/have to isolate/anything else.

I’m probably not someone who fits your criteria to answer this but I’ll answer anyway.

I have a rare autoimmune disease but was invited to have the vaccine, I’ve spent hours researching and decided not to have it. I’ve had adverse reactions to lots of medication in the past, think as mild as NSAIDs, and I’ve managed to avoid catching covid thus far.
Also due to health my body doesn’t keep hold of antibodies.
I feel fairly safe, I’m unable to venture out more than once a week, so this hasn’t changed much, there was a period of time during 2020 where I didn’t leave the house for months due to shielding.
I did go to town last week, sat outside with a coffee, I was exempt from mask wearing but do so anyway, and always have hand gel, and wash hands thoroughly.

Parker231 · 19/08/2021 21:41

@FreshApricot

Wow, reading the replies here I am very glad that vaccine programmes are designed based on strong clinical evidence, and not on "how safe you personally feel".

Totally agree. Some people have no understanding of the science and research behind the vaccine benefits.

OhMickyYourSoFine · 19/08/2021 22:04

Should have added - discussed with consultant who was in agreement.

ollyollyoxenfree · 19/08/2021 22:23

I look after my immune system

As do I, which includes providing it with helpful instructions on how to fight a novel coronavirus (and other infectious diseases)

@shewalkslikerihanna

Good, glad we are on the same page
Does that include sending off for ivermectin?

Eh? Your reply doesn't make sense - you haven't chosen to give your IS this info?

Also not sure what you mean by "sending of for ivermectin"? There's no evidence for it's efficacy in prevention or treatment of acute or long COVID.

ollyollyoxenfree · 19/08/2021 22:26

@bumbleymummy

It seems that there are double standards when it comes to self reporting. Vaccine side effects reported in yellow card scheme -> not necessarily true/overestimation. Self reporting of ‘long COVID’ in the Zoe app -> completely accurate representation/under estimation of how big a problem it is.

Don't understand this either. You're suggesting all reported side effects are assumed to be causal when clearly this isn't the case (for any medication)?

As I said - these are events that have occurred after vaccination, not events that are automatically due to vaccination. If no-one died (or miscarried, or was in a car crash) after being vaccinated, it would mean it was somehow protective against death (or miscarriage, or car crashes), which is clearly not the case. This schemes are used to work out if these events are occurring at rates higher than in the general population and therefore might be causal.

Many scientists including Tim Spector have highlighted the issue of collecting data on LC via the Zoe app, and again, emphasised how it may not reflect actual prevalence. Not sure why you think this mean dodgy assumptions should be adopted for vaccine side effects.

bumbleymummy · 19/08/2021 23:25

Don't understand this either. You're suggesting all reported side effects are assumed to be causal when clearly this isn't the case (for any medication)?

I know. I’m not saying we should assume they’re all causal. I also don’t think that we should assume that everyone on the Zoe app that says they have long covid actually has it. Some people will happily accept the former but insist that I am completely unreasonable/downplaying the virus/am covid denier etc for stating the latter.

ollyollyoxenfree · 19/08/2021 23:32

@bumbleymummy

Don't understand this either. You're suggesting all reported side effects are assumed to be causal when clearly this isn't the case (for any medication)?

I know. I’m not saying we should assume they’re all causal. I also don’t think that we should assume that everyone on the Zoe app that says they have long covid actually has it. Some people will happily accept the former but insist that I am completely unreasonable/downplaying the virus/am covid denier etc for stating the latter.

No one has stated that here though so not sure why you brought it up?

As I have stated, just because biased and invalid methods have been used, it's not a reason to use them for something else.

Anyone scientifically literate has been careful to assess both long COVID data and that of vaccine side effects with the appropriate degree of caution.

bumbleymummy · 20/08/2021 00:07

I brought it up to highlight the double standards - as I stated in the post I brought it up in. :)

Xenia · 20/08/2021 09:08

There are lots of reasons people don't have the vaccine (although the vast majority of people do choose to have it). The thread just illustrates it is very hard to generalise about the unvaccinated although I certainly don't mind if people say I am in the worst category as I probably could have it safely but choose not to. Mind you I don't really go out much other than a quick trip to the food shop so I am not likely to be a major spreader so probably not quite in the "morally worst" category and if we were producing an app for that may be the large amount of tax I pay that funds the NHS goes on the positive side of the scaled and the fact I don't use the NHS just about (7 minutes in 15 years with the GP and NHS dental check ups)

Parker231 · 21/08/2021 09:21

twitter.com/adelegroyer/status/1428755006921003010?s=21

Here are some stats on hospital admissions and deaths split by vaccinated and not.

Onemorefortheroad · 21/08/2021 09:28

I wasn't for getting the vaccine for months. My anxiety eventually got the better of me though and I got vaccinated 2 weeks ago as I was really scared of catching it and being one of the people you read about with regrets on their deathbed that the media seem to be pushing.

A week later, following on from vaccine, both my partner and I caught Covid and have now been in bed for a week with it, it's been awful.

Anyway, he was fully vaccinated, had been for weeks, yet our symptoms are pretty much the same, if anything he is a bit worse!!

So I am wondering now if it's the saviour we had all hoped for

fallingup · 21/08/2021 10:01

@Onemorefortheroad

I wasn't for getting the vaccine for months. My anxiety eventually got the better of me though and I got vaccinated 2 weeks ago as I was really scared of catching it and being one of the people you read about with regrets on their deathbed that the media seem to be pushing.

A week later, following on from vaccine, both my partner and I caught Covid and have now been in bed for a week with it, it's been awful.

Anyway, he was fully vaccinated, had been for weeks, yet our symptoms are pretty much the same, if anything he is a bit worse!!

So I am wondering now if it's the saviour we had all hoped for

Yes I'm wondering this also. My family have caught covid (I don't live with them) 2 x are fully vaccinated - one of which is in hospital, the other is bed ridden. The two unvaccinated only have a 'cold' and one of them is pregnant!

I'm not sure how it makes me feel.