Why is not having the vaccine selfish

[chorizoTapas]

If not getting the vaccine only means you're putting yourself at risk why is it considered selfish and why are some people choosing to not be around their own family members who are unvaccinated? As most people have now had the vaccine hopefully the hospitals won't become overwhelmed... even with the few people that won't have the jab.

I am double jabbed but my brother is refusing to have his. Is he selfish? And if so why?

@bumbleymummy

What part are you struggling with? Or is it just that I said that it was a good job we do have vaccines and that doesn’t fit in with your ‘bumbley is anti-vaxx’ narrative?

I would argue it's the scientific illiteracy that is more of a problem

I have an MSc and a science PhD @leafygreens so no, definitely not ‘scientifically illiterate’.

And what part of ‘it’s a good job we have the vaccines to reduce the risk of serious illness and death’ is ‘anti-vaxx’ exactly?

@bumbleymummy

I have an MSc and a science PhD *@leafygreens* so no, definitely not ‘scientifically illiterate’.

Yes I saw you post on this another thread, unfortunately it doesn't seem like it's given you a good grasp on epidemiology or vaccinology.

Vanden Bossche has wet-lab based PhD. Doesn't seem to have led him to a decent scientific career with any publications of value, or stopped him preaching complete crap about the vaccines though.

What are your qualifications @leafyygreens? :)

[quote bumbleymummy]@SunnyNights it’s not hard to understand - unless you try to reduce it to a binary for/against issue. (Which it isn’t.)

Your question:
“What position would we be in if no one took the vaccine?”

We couldn’t stay in lockdown forever so…

Lots of vulnerable people would be dead.(although plenty would be fine and immune after infection)

Most non-vulnerable would be fine and immune after infection.

Thankfully, we have vaccines to reduce the risk to the vulnerable groups and uptake has been really high in those groups. If they didn’t want it, they’re the ones most likely to suffer really - but, because they’re high risk, they were happy to take the vaccine.

Lower risk people don’t gain as much from having it and it doesn’t really make that much difference to the nhs because they were unlikely to end up in hospital anyway.[/quote]
So I feel like all other posts you'll ignore, but I'll bite @bumbleymummy

You were asked the question, "what would happen if no one took the vaccine?"

This was your, quite frankly, bizarre argument. You have ignored many factors including-

• significantly increased death, hospitalisations and long term complications
• increased risk of new immune evasive variants which would have made the situation many magnitudes worse and had a global impact
• further national lockdowns required in order to supress transmission, impacting on the economy and other aspects of health

-overwhelmed healthcare services which would lead to non-COVID deaths -significant delays to non-urgent healthcare including things like screenings, surgeries and treatments -huge amounts of disruption due to the sheer volume of adults requiring time off ill and in isolation

The counterfactual scenario to our current situation, would not be identical but for the fact people hadn't taken up vaccination. That's what you haven't seemed to grasp.

@bumbleymummy

What are your qualifications *@leafyygreens*? :)

Feel free to check the State of Fear threads of which I contributed a fair bit.

MSc, PhD, currently a published academic in field relevant to the current situation.

I also do feel proclaiming scientific qualifications and demanding them of others on an anonymous forum is pretty pointless.

Similar to all those posters who have a relative who's a scientist who wouldn't touch the vaccine with a bargepole

@CharleyChook

Last week (as I said on another thread) 17 of the 19 patients in our ITU were unvaccinated and we had to stop doing orthopaedic surgeries due to using those beds for COVID patients. That is having a real impact on our services. On people who need ventilation due to a trauma or stroke for example and for all the people who have waited in agonising pain for orthopaedic surgery. Not to mention how effing awful it is to wear full PPE for a 12 hour shift in the height of summer. It’s beyond selfish not to be vaccinated

We lost a 24 year old on ICU today. 5 other unvaccinated under 30’s are on ventilation.

As sad as we all feel I’m afraid You are wasting you breath. Those who will not be vaccinated will find any excuse not to be - and will find any excuse as to why they are more deserving of an ICU bed than anyone else. It beggars belief but there we go. The entitlement of some people is unbelievable 🙄 MN is full of of entitled people. Two anti covid Vaxxers I could name off the top of my head.

Scared to have the vaccine 😂 I can’t wait until they are admitted to ICU with Covid tbh. There we go… 🤷🏻‍♀️🙊

That must be a hideous situation to work in, I'm sorry.

To be fair I have genuine sympathy for anyone who's scared or unsure of having the vaccine.

It's those who find any bullshit excuse (like scaremongering around vaccine safety, vaccine effectiveness, downplaying the seriousness of COVID) to say they're not having it and trying to convince others that is so totally maddening.

@leafyygreens I literally said that if ^no one’ took the vaccine, ‘lots of vulnerable people would be dead’. How is that ‘ignoring the increased death?’

What argument do you actually think I’m making here? That without the vaccine we’d be fine? No - as I said in my previous post, and this one. There would be a lot more death. But, with that, there would eventually come a high level of population immunity (but at a high price).

It’s a silly question because most people (top 9 groups) actually gained quite a lot from having the vaccine and were happy to take it. They were the ones who had the most to lose by not taking it. They were the most likely to end up seriously ill/dead.

@leafyygreens

I also do feel proclaiming scientific qualifications and demanding them of others on an anonymous forum is pretty pointless.

Similar to all those posters who have a relative who's a scientist who wouldn't touch the vaccine with a bargepole

Oh, I agree. I don’t usually mention it unless someone tries to call me ‘scientifically illiterate’ or similar .

I can’t wait until they are admitted to ICU with Covid tbh.

Quite shocking that someone who is apparently a hcp would wish illness on people.

Sorry, second part of that post to charleycook

The only reason we have been able to open up is because so many people have been vaccinated if they hadn’t everyone would still be in lockdown, so yes if you can have it you should.

As I said @bumbleymummy, it is perfectly possible to have a PhD in area that does not give you appropriate skills in scientific literacy.

Case in point is Vanden Bossche who has wet-lab based PhD. Doesn't seem to have led him to a decent scientific career with any publications of value, or stopped him preaching complete crap about the vaccines though.

Not sure why you're tagging me in that quote when I didn't make it and I'm not a HCP.

I am intrigued though, what was the title of your doctorate? @bumbleymummy

It's selfish because you are relying upon and reaping the benefits of other people making a different decision to you.

It's no more selfish than leaving your lights on or taking the bus when you could walk. Eight million die a year due to fossil fuel usage apparently. Unfortunately covid has empowered a huge surge of pious indignation on unforeseen levels of piety. Try to ignore it.

(The fact that anti vaccination people are round the bend is a different matter entirely )

Quite shocking that someone who is apparently a hcp would wish illness on people

I don’t wish illness on anyone. I just wish that ICU could be open to people who genuinely need ICU beds.

Anyone who refuses a covid vaccine because they are scared of a vaccine has a shock coming coming to them should they be admitted with covid. Maybe that is what it takes for them to see sense?

Within minutes of being admitted you will have a canula inserted - which is much more painful than having a simple vaccine. I am not going to go into the horror of what is required if you need to be ventilated. The unvaccinated, but see themselves as “deserving” of NHS treatment, can discover that delight for themselves.

Hmmm… there are an awful lot of these ‘gasping for breath and begging for the vaccine on their deathbed’ stories going around at the moment.

@leafyygreens not interested in outing myself, thanks!

@CharleyChook you’re still not coming across as a particularly ‘caring’ hcp tbh. How do you feel about treating people with smoking or obesity-related illnesses? Do they ‘deserve’ nhs treatment or do they not ‘genuinely’ need icu beds either because of the choices they’ve made?

Not getting vaccinated if you are able is absolutely selfish, as your decision does not just affect you but others too. Especially those who really are unable to be vaccinated, or are too young to.

CharleyChook You're a healthcare professional working in a hospital treating covid patients among others. Yet you've written:
Scared to have the vaccine 😂 I can’t wait until they are admitted to ICU with Covid tbh. There we go…
That is, quite honestly, an awful thing to write but what's worse, it's come from a medical professional. Are you going to treat the unvaccinated differently than the vaccinated or just have a good ol' unprofessional moan on a public forum?