Why is not having the vaccine selfish

[chorizoTapas]

If not getting the vaccine only means you're putting yourself at risk why is it considered selfish and why are some people choosing to not be around their own family members who are unvaccinated? As most people have now had the vaccine hopefully the hospitals won't become overwhelmed... even with the few people that won't have the jab.

I am double jabbed but my brother is refusing to have his. Is he selfish? And if so why?

@Mrscartwright1965

I am a heavy smoker which increases my risk, I have tried to give up but it is very difficult. I also have a bad relationship with food meaning I am currently several stones overweight due to past traumatic events yet I am expected to mix with anti vaxxers who don't take the necessary decisions to reduce their risk at overstretching the NHS by being admitted to hospital with covid. If someone can't be bothered to take the vaccine, why should they be allowed NHS treatment with their selfishness?

Not sure if you are trying to make a point about personal responsibility or not

@Mrscartwright1965 I’m not really following your argument here. You are in a higher risk group for covid, along with other smoking/obesity related illnesses that could put strain on the NHS (for potentially years), but you’re criticising “ anti vaxxers who don't take the necessary decisions to reduce their risk at overstretching the NHS” ?

CharleyChook you’re still not coming across as a particularly ‘caring’ hcp tbh. How do you feel about treating people with smoking or obesity-related illnesses? Do they ‘deserve’ nhs treatment or do they not ‘genuinely’ need icu beds either because of the choices they’ve made

People with smoking/obesity related illness, generally, do not end up on Intensive Care Wards. Their lifestyle impacts on themselves. They do not close wards to others. They pose no risk to me or anyone else. Why is that so hard to understand?

That is, quite honestly, an awful thing to write but what's worse, it's come from a medical professional. Are you going to treat the unvaccinated differently than the vaccinated or just have a good ol' unprofessional moan on a public forum

If you have chosen to be unvaccinated and find yourself needing NHS care you will find out for yourself.

People who are vaccinated generally don’t end up in ICU. You can believe the anti vaccine conspiratories all you like. The reality is very different.

@CharleyChook If you have chosen to be unvaccinated and find yourself needing NHS care you will find out for yourself.

That sounds horribly like a threat.

Well, technically, smoking and obesity are big risk factors for COVID so how do you feel about treating those patients whose decisions put them more at risk of ending up in ICU? Or do you just save your resentment for unvaccinated people?

(And smoking and obesity can increase the risk of surgical complications which could result in icu admission but I’m sure I don’t have to tell you that :))

[quote Steakandcheeseplease]@caughtinanet well my children are officially too young to decide if they want to take it or not. Im sorry if you think 'hell will freeze over" is an aggressive phrase. Honestly there is much worse on MN

But no my kids wont be having a vaccine thats only been licensed in an emergency. I still remember what happened to some of the kids that the swine flu vaccination ten years ago. They have only just been paid compensation by the way..[/quote]
I didn't think your language was at all aggressive, I thought your post was quite sensible and reasoned :).

I'm glad I don't have young children to have to make this decision for. I personally intend to get it because I can't see the world getting back to normal otherwise, not that I haven't enjoyed having our borders closed in New Zealand and having a break from globalism and all its excesses. And I haven't had to worry about COVID at all because no community transmission where I live since April 2020.

I hope things don't go back to normal pre COVID as we have all had a break to see what life is like when humans slow down a bit. In NZ we have peak employment because there is no constant supply of cheap labour coming in from overseas. We have our beautiful landscape back to ourselves, no longer crowded... But I know it can't go on like this forever and I for one wonder how I would fair if I caught it, and if it took over in NZ now it would probably be mayhem.

The vax is worth it if it prevents the hundreds of deaths that NZ has so far been spared, but I'm giving it to myself not to a tiny baby, so that's a completely different scenario to me.

That sounds horribly like a threat

No threat from me. Your decision…

Anyway I have 24 hours off. So I’m off. Everyone has the choice to make to make their own decisions. At this moment Netflix and a lie in until lunchtime is my decision. I care not one jot who makes the decision to not vaccinate. The choice is theirs.

@TeddyBearsPicnic89

I don't think it's fair to call others selfish, particularly when delta transmission is still high amongst those who are vaccinated. I say this as someone who is double vaxxed. For those who are on the fence (for whatever reason) about getting vaccinated, name calling and belittling are not going to change their minds. I do feel that people should be encouraged to get it (to reduce the burden in hospitals), nevertheless it's a very personal decision and autonomy should be respected.

I agree. I intend to get vaccinated but the anti 'anti-vaxxer' hysteria that existed long before COVID doesn't help anyone and the right to refuse a medical procedure is an incredibly important one to protect.

In this case, in my case, I think getting the COVID vaccine is the pragmatic thing to do. I'm not looking forward to it but I'll grin and bear it. It's both for personal protection and as a contribution to society - our situation in NZ is different.

We can't open our borders until enough people have it that we won't suffer the waves of death and mayhem we have watched happening in other parts of the world over the last 18 months (while our quality of life actually improved in many ways).

People who are vaccinated generally don’t end up in ICU. You can believe the anti vaccine conspiratories all you like. The reality is very different.

I don't believe any anti vaxx conspiracies. Why do you assume I do? Simply because I have pointed out how unprofessional you are? My DH was a frontliner in A&E during the first wave. He got covid and was in ICU in the second wave and was ventilated. I've lived it, seen it, learned it. I STILL think you're unprofessional. Whether I'm pro or anti-vaxx is a moot point really.

I care not one jot who makes the decision to not vaccinate. The choice is theirs.

But you do care. It's why you're on this thread.

Firstly I want to say that I believe that everyone is entitled to their own choice.

But working in the NHS I have known of multiple organ transplants that have been cancelled due to there being no space in ITU for patients to go after their operations, which is a massive shame as it means that the organs intended for use will end up being wasted and the donation patient may not get their chance of having another.

Whilst vaccinated people still can catch and spread covid there is less chance of them ending up in hospital, unlike people who have not been vaccinated.

@Tealightsandd

Some people actually trust and have faith in their own immune system.

What, against a new virus that is likely a human modified (potential bioweapon research) leak from a lab - the Wuhan Institute of Virology?

As SARS-Cov-2 is new and potentially not a natural disease, we cannot at this still early stage fully understand possible long term effects. We do know that it can cause heart, lung, brain, kidney, and liver damage, trigger diabetes, and lead to erectile dysfunction. What we don't yet know is how many people have been and will be affected. The damage including clots aren't always showing up in conventional scans.

According to an Australian virologist who was working in that lab at the time, this isn't likely at all, it's most unlikely and there was plenty of opportunity for it to occur naturally.

@WanderingFruitWonderer

Thank you *@tealightsandd*. Yes, I've wondered about the aspect of animals catching Covid too. It's a minefield, the whole business of life! At the moment, I have a lifestyle that means it's highly unlikely I'll catch or pass on Covid to others. I recognise that may change, so I'm definitely not saying never. Re the smoking issue. I 100% agree that we all need our treats. Life would be bleak for me without chocolate (vegan and fairtrade of course!) It's impossible to be perfect, and I'm fortunate that I never started smoking. So, sincerely no judgement if that's your indulgence of choice. The tobacco industry is an ethical disaster (to answer your question about veganism and smoking) in several ways. But to be honest, most big industries are. I read The Ethical Consumer, and unfortunately it's hugely increased my anxiety, as almost everything seems to be tainted . I guess we all have to work out our own morality. I'm very very far indeed from where I'd like to be ethically. Anyway, thank you so much for your balanced, kind and thoughtful responses. You sound like a genuinely lovely and empathetic person

I went through this process several years ago re eating organic food, which due to life circumstances became something I couldn't stick to. Also re veganism as due to various food intolerances I couldn't get enough protein to be able to do it. If you are trying to be an ethical person and aiming for 100 per cent, you eventually have to face the reality that its an impossible task and the only real choice is moderation. So you pick your little part of all the problems in the world where you can make a difference, and trust that others out there will fill the gaps by focusing on their little part of the problem that they can do well. So collectively we make a difference. It is a humbling place to come to because of the inclination to judge ourselves and others and therefore to be aware others will judge us for our lack of "perfection" or perceived hypocrisy. But such is life. It's one of life's big lessons I think.

@Mrscartwright1965

I have no sympathy with anti vaxxers , can't they see they are indirectly murdering people with their selfishness?

My best friend works in an ICU ward and told me the other day that a young girl was literally gasping for air holding her hand out begging for the vaccine only to be told unfortunately it was too late. Her funeral will be next week so perhaps the people not taking the vaccine will keep away from hospitals and leave medical treatment to sensible people who have taken the proper precautions like vaccines and maintaining social distancing/masks etc. You reap what you sow and I'm afraid I would either make vaccines mandatory or deny treatment to anti vaxers who don't bother to look after themselves.

My husband is CEV and I have a BMI of 36 so covid would probably be a death sentence for us both

This is actually a shocking thing to say after you have painted the awful picture of a young girl gasping for air and now being dead. COVID has it seems, also brings out the worst in people.

@teepsp it's been a pleasure reading all your lovely sensible posts over my morning cuppa! It's about 7.15am here.
I think being in NZ has kind of preserved you! We've all gone a bit mad in the UK, as the Covid situation's been so dire at times over the last 18 months or so. We're all somewhat battle-scarred and emotionally damaged now, hence some the alarming posts, on both ends of the spectrum. I've learned to forgive it all now, as I know we've all lost the plot a bit.
Your sensible posts are from a protected paradise, like greetings from another world!
Re your reply to my last post. Yes, it's indeed been humbling to recognise that ethical perfection (or anything close to it) is totally impossible. Great advice about choosing my little part to focus on...

If you're unvaccinated but continue to live like you're in lockdown, fine.
The only reason placed are now able to open and we can go to them, is the vaccine. So if you're not taking the vaccine but you're going out to the pub, family gatherings, holidays etc. Then you're being selfish. You're allowing others to take the risk of being vaccinated, in order to allow your freedom, but not willing to take that risk for yourself.

Vaccine programmes only work when a large number of people take the vaccine. What if everyone made the "personal decision" not to be vaccinated, we would be locked down forever or millions dying from covid. They are only able to make the decision, because lots of other people have chosen to have the vaccine. That's why I believe its selfish.

@AvantGardening what a ridiculous thing to say ,getting their own back in such a way , luckily I know of know young people who think like this

Fact is people who choose not to be vaccinated do benefit from those that have been rather than other way round
Its yor choice to have it or nor but its also other peoples choice if they decide not to mix with those who have not had it as well.
You can't have it both ways.
Luckily we have a fairly high uptake as it currently looks like we are all benefiting from that at the moment

Unvaccinated people can be immune too. People here seem to be just assuming that unvaccinated = risk to others.

The unvaccinated people in hospital weren’t immune.

Massive impact on NHS resources.

Neither are the vaccinated ones in hospital.

@bumbleymummy

Neither are the vaccinated ones in hospital.

There are proportionally far fewer vaccinated people in hospital with covid than unvaccinated. That demonstrates very clearly that the immunity proportion varies significantly, as does the pressure added to the health service by those who choose not to listen to the advice of medical professionals.

MRex, yes, I know that there are ‘proportionally fewer’. It doesn’t change the fact that vaccinated people in hospital aren’t immune nor does it change the fact that not every unvaccinated person is a risk to others.

You know what else considerably adds to the pressure on the health services, and has done for years? Smoking and obesity related illnesses. They’re also significant risk factors for covid. But apparently we can overlook these people who ‘don’t listen to the advice of medical professionals’ even though them losing weight or stopping smoking would have longer term benefits for the NHS, beyond coronavirus.