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Why is not having the vaccine selfish

538 replies

chorizoTapas · 06/08/2021 14:02

If not getting the vaccine only means you're putting yourself at risk why is it considered selfish and why are some people choosing to not be around their own family members who are unvaccinated? As most people have now had the vaccine hopefully the hospitals won't become overwhelmed... even with the few people that won't have the jab.

I am double jabbed but my brother is refusing to have his. Is he selfish? And if so why?

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RollaCola84 · 06/08/2021 17:21

@bumbleymummy oh cool so it's just like choosing to shop at Sainsburys instead of Tesco, or preferring Indian to Chinese takeaway.

Not like putting other people's health and livelihoods and society's wellbeing at risk for at best spurious reasons.

DolphinFC · 06/08/2021 17:49

If you've had the vaccine you are scientifically proven to be less likely to spread the virus.

I would like the unvaccinated to at least acknowledge this fact.

Any takers?

MareofBeasttown · 06/08/2021 17:55

@DolphinFC

If you've had the vaccine you are scientifically proven to be less likely to spread the virus.

I would like the unvaccinated to at least acknowledge this fact.

Any takers?

Mostly seen the argument that, if the vaccine is not 100% effective, it is not effective at all. No point arguing with that.
Dottiex · 06/08/2021 17:59

Honestly I got it for selfish reasons, not bothered about Covid just wanna go on holiday.

bumbleymummy · 06/08/2021 18:05

Mostly seen the argument that, if the vaccine is not 100% effective, it is not effective at all.

Where?

bearandowl · 06/08/2021 18:05

Latest government figures indicate that fully-vaccinated who catch Covid may be JUST as infectious as unjabbed www.msn.com/en-gb/health/medical/fully-vaccinated-who-catch-covid-may-be-just-as-infectious-as-unjabbed/ar-AAN1oqV

bumbleymummy · 06/08/2021 18:06

Ah but they weren’t ‘selfish’ @bearandowl so it’s ok if they transmit the virus to someone else.

Imnothereforthedrama · 06/08/2021 18:11

Not selfish but you are putting yourself at more risk . Not bothered either way tbh .

MareofBeasttown · 06/08/2021 18:14

[quote bearandowl]Latest government figures indicate that fully-vaccinated who catch Covid may be JUST as infectious as unjabbed www.msn.com/en-gb/health/medical/fully-vaccinated-who-catch-covid-may-be-just-as-infectious-as-unjabbed/ar-AAN1oqV[/quote]
But you have less of a chance of getting covid, as it says below. so this is The Daily Fail doing wonderful science reporting again.

Lucked · 06/08/2021 18:15

Well individually it doesn’t seem selfish but they are having massive surges in US states with low vaccine rates and they are running into ICU bed problems. Delays in surgeries and admissions because ICU beds aren’t available. Doctors and non covid patients are frustrated by the volume of avoidable admissions. So in a larger scale it is selfish and irresponsible. Luckily for you vaccination rates are very high here so you will benefit from everyone else immunity.

Goldbar · 06/08/2021 18:30

It is the vaccinated who are putting an end to this pandemic and the unvaccinated who are prolonging its continuation.

KOKOagainandagain · 06/08/2021 18:31

Not a virologist but it is my understanding that any virus will only develop vaccine evasive work arounds in an imperfectly vaccinated population. Especially where vaccine only inhibits severe symptoms but not infection. Especially when community infection is high. Especially when those infected don't exhibit the symptoms that qualify for testing and fly under the radar.

These are not sterilising vaccines. If they were there would be no debate and only real anti-Vaxers would refuse the vaccine.

The virus naturally mutates but also mutates when presented with a puzzle. It's an experiential learning process the virus can only go through when it infects someone who is imperfectly vaccinated. Then it can transmit to better infect the unvaccinated. Not the other way around. So imperfect vaccination puts the unvaccinated and young and global population at increased risk.

In these circumstances you could equally argue that ultimately it is selfish on a global level to participate in interventions that are designed to protect the health services, educational services, sectors of the economy etc in the western world in the short term but globally may make things much worse in the longer term.

The narrative has slipped from vaccines only preventing serious illness and death in the elderly and vulnerable as an emergency measure in the absence of effective treatment to vaccination for all adults and vaccination being mandated for all, including under 18s with sanction.

I think the focus on vaccination is making us blind to pertinent questions. How was the delta wave in India 'brought under control' despite the lack of vaccination? Historically, why did the so-called Spanish flu first target the elderly and health care workers but then the young and healthy (not because of vaccination)?

If we don't understand how virus work we can't understand how intervention works.

DolphinFC · 06/08/2021 18:46

@DolphinFC

If you've had the vaccine you are scientifically proven to be less likely to spread the virus.

I would like the unvaccinated to at least acknowledge this fact.

Any takers?

Thought not.
bumbleymummy · 06/08/2021 18:48

@Goldbar

It is the vaccinated who are putting an end to this pandemic and the unvaccinated who are prolonging its continuation.
What about all the people who have been infected with the virus over the last year and are most immune? They were contributing to population immunity before the vaccine even came along. Not important any more though?
Superstar22 · 06/08/2021 18:56

You are increasing the chance that NHS doctors snd nurses will catch it around you, in their hospital, because they are treating you.

You are increasing the chance that you will be using resources needed for people who “haven’t had the chance to avoid their illness” eg cancer operations, RTA’s.

You are increasing the risk of variants & us all being poorer for it.

You are increasing the chance your loved ones will bury you before your time, or look after you with long covid.

You can prevent almost all of this through vaccination. It is selfish if you don’t.

Postdatedpandemic · 06/08/2021 19:04

In the western world Covid kills around one in 650 unvaccinated people. Measles kills around one in five thousand.
Outcomes for both are much worse in the developing world.

In the next few years are we going to see this anti-vaxx propaganda spread to other illnesses?

magsbagsfags · 06/08/2021 19:40

@Tatum1234

Yes it’s very selfish, can you imagine the state the country would be in if everyone had refused it?! It reduces the risk of transmission and helps protect those who can’t be vaccinated.
@Tatum1234 this is entirely the point! But sadly many people are scared and ignorant and selfish and refuse to get vaccinated.

Clearly they know nothing about science and nothing about community.

magsbagsfags · 06/08/2021 19:43

I wonder if most people feel sorry for the those that die of coronavirus and are double jabbed.

I wonder if most people think "ah well...you made your choice" for those that die of coronavirus and are unvaccinated.

I genuinely believe those that refuse the vaccine should not receive medical attention if they contract coronavirus - I wonder what would be the anti-vaxxers thoughts then 🤔

XenoBitch · 06/08/2021 19:48

@magsbagsfags

I wonder if most people feel sorry for the those that die of coronavirus and are double jabbed.

I wonder if most people think "ah well...you made your choice" for those that die of coronavirus and are unvaccinated.

I genuinely believe those that refuse the vaccine should not receive medical attention if they contract coronavirus - I wonder what would be the anti-vaxxers thoughts then 🤔

Anti-vaxxers hold extreme views. Your belief that people who are not vaccinated should be denied medical care is also pretty extreme.
Spudina · 06/08/2021 19:55

The less people that are vaccinated, the more the virus is able to mutate. Eventually it may mutate to a point that the vaccines we now have will be totally ineffective. The Beta strain is showing signs of vaccine resistance I believe. Then we are back where we started and all the vulnerable who have avoided human contact for over a year have done it for nothing.

leafyygreens · 06/08/2021 20:08

@KOKOagainandagain

Not a virologist but it is my understanding that any virus will only develop vaccine evasive work arounds in an imperfectly vaccinated population. Especially where vaccine only inhibits severe symptoms but not infection. Especially when community infection is high. Especially when those infected don't exhibit the symptoms that qualify for testing and fly under the radar.

These are not sterilising vaccines. If they were there would be no debate and only real anti-Vaxers would refuse the vaccine.

The virus naturally mutates but also mutates when presented with a puzzle. It's an experiential learning process the virus can only go through when it infects someone who is imperfectly vaccinated. Then it can transmit to better infect the unvaccinated. Not the other way around. So imperfect vaccination puts the unvaccinated and young and global population at increased risk.

In these circumstances you could equally argue that ultimately it is selfish on a global level to participate in interventions that are designed to protect the health services, educational services, sectors of the economy etc in the western world in the short term but globally may make things much worse in the longer term.

The narrative has slipped from vaccines only preventing serious illness and death in the elderly and vulnerable as an emergency measure in the absence of effective treatment to vaccination for all adults and vaccination being mandated for all, including under 18s with sanction.

I think the focus on vaccination is making us blind to pertinent questions. How was the delta wave in India 'brought under control' despite the lack of vaccination? Historically, why did the so-called Spanish flu first target the elderly and health care workers but then the young and healthy (not because of vaccination)?

If we don't understand how virus work we can't understand how intervention works.

Yes, this is not the opinion of credible virologists or epidemiologists @KOKOagainandagain

The virus can only mutate when it has a chance to replicate. Partial immunity will decrease the amount of replication it can do when it enters a human host, as the virus will be neutralised and cleared at a quicker rate. This reduces the opportunities for mutations to be acquired.

In terms of mutation, is it is better therefore to have partial immunity than none at all. This is why mass vaccination is important in terms of reducing the chances of new emergent strains.

QueenofKattegat · 06/08/2021 20:09

I genuinely believe those that refuse the vaccine should not receive medical attention if they contract coronavirus

I would be embarrassed to write something as vile as this. Utterly shameful.

WanderingFruitWonderer · 06/08/2021 20:17

Thank you @tealightsandd. Yes, I've wondered about the aspect of animals catching Covid too. It's a minefield, the whole business of life! At the moment, I have a lifestyle that means it's highly unlikely I'll catch or pass on Covid to others. I recognise that may change, so I'm definitely not saying never.
Re the smoking issue. I 100% agree that we all need our treats. Life would be bleak for me without chocolate (vegan and fairtrade of course!) It's impossible to be perfect, and I'm fortunate that I never started smoking. So, sincerely no judgement if that's your indulgence of choice. The tobacco industry is an ethical disaster (to answer your question about veganism and smoking) in several ways. But to be honest, most big industries are. I read The Ethical Consumer, and unfortunately it's hugely increased my anxiety, as almost everything seems to be tainted Sad. I guess we all have to work out our own morality. I'm very very far indeed from where I'd like to be ethically.
Anyway, thank you so much for your balanced, kind and thoughtful responses. You sound like a genuinely lovely and empathetic person Smile

SunnyNights · 06/08/2021 20:37

What if we all didn't get it?? Where would we be then?

Those not being vaccinated ARE being selfish and relying on others to do their civic duty to not let this virus mutate to a point where it can't be controlled.

TheNewBlack · 06/08/2021 20:40

It’s selfish if I don’t have the vaccine because I would be at a higher risk of transmitting the virus to others including friends, colleagues and patients.

It is selfish because I would be taking advantage of the benefits that other people’s vaccinations are giving society.

It is selfish because if I end up in hospital with Covid I have not taken the recommended precautions to protect myself. Therefore I am taking up a bed and medical care which may have been less likely had I had the vaccine. Why should I expect the health care system to step in and treat me when I have not followed their recommendations and done what I could to protect myself and others.

Maybe those who are refusing vaccinations are happy for those around them to refuse too..so the GP / dentist who treats you, the nurse or midwife who provides your care, the care worker who looks after your relative in a care home, the teacher who educates your child? However having spoken with vaccine refusers in my work my experience has been a general expectation for people in public service to have it. But not them.

And the idea that people who have the vaccine are somehow fearful is ludicrous. If everyone refused the vaccine we would be no further forward in managing this pandemic. Maybe those who choose not to have the vaccine are able to make choices with regards to their work and lifestyle which mean they are at lower risk anyway. Perhaps they can work from home or choose not to work / commute / travel? Perhaps they will refuse a ventilator in the event of ending up in ITU?