Why is not having the vaccine selfish

[chorizoTapas]

If not getting the vaccine only means you're putting yourself at risk why is it considered selfish and why are some people choosing to not be around their own family members who are unvaccinated? As most people have now had the vaccine hopefully the hospitals won't become overwhelmed... even with the few people that won't have the jab.

I am double jabbed but my brother is refusing to have his. Is he selfish? And if so why?

@Mrscartwright1965

I have no sympathy with anti vaxxers , can't they see they are indirectly murdering people with their selfishness?

My best friend works in an ICU ward and told me the other day that a young girl was literally gasping for air holding her hand out begging for the vaccine only to be told unfortunately it was too late. Her funeral will be next week so perhaps the people not taking the vaccine will keep away from hospitals and leave medical treatment to sensible people who have taken the proper precautions like vaccines and maintaining social distancing/masks etc. You reap what you sow and I'm afraid I would either make vaccines mandatory or deny treatment to anti vaxers who don't bother to look after themselves.

My husband is CEV and I have a BMI of 36 so covid would probably be a death sentence for us both

You say that taking the vaccine is the responsible thing to do but so is ensuring we are physically well. Maintaining a healthy weight and giving up smoking are also a personal responsibility and within our own control. One person can't expect everyone else to make significant changes to accommodate their inability to take responsibility for their own health. Society doesn't work like that.

Compare it to going on holiday without travel insurance, most likely you’ll be fine but there are big consequences if it goes wrong and either other people will be left picking up the pieces or supporting you to. It’s an abdication of personal responsibility.

There are people who are in unavoidable positions who can’t get the vaccine or have personal concerns about it who are in a different position to those who’d rather ‘take their chances’ and don’t appreciate it’s not their personally ring fenced NHS resource they’re gambling with.

To use my own analogy, I would be more inclined to help someone without travel insurance requiring help to be airlifted home from abroad if they’d had to go for emergency reasons like a funeral than I would someone who’d gone on a jolly to Thailand and came off a moped.

The problem is with your premise. You say ‘if it only means you’re putting yourself at risk’ - but the reality is that choice has an impact on others.

My home country isn’t going to let me see my family - either me there, or them here, until we have a lot less virus circulating freely, and until they have reached very high levels of vaccination.

So everyone who makes the decision not to be vaccinated means it’s longer that I can’t see my family. It increases the (already huge) risk that a family member will become seriously ill or die, and I won’t be able to see them or go to their funeral.

It’s incredibly frustrating.

And that’s not taking into account the impact of contributing to broader community spread, increased breakthrough infections, increased risk to vulnerable people with poor immune response.

It’s absolutely their choice, and I respect their right to that choice. But please don’t pretend that it doesn’t impact anyone else.

@bumbleymummy

MRex, yes, I know that there are ‘proportionally fewer’. It doesn’t change the fact that vaccinated people in hospital aren’t immune nor does it change the fact that not every unvaccinated person is a risk to others.

You know what else considerably adds to the pressure on the health services, and has done for years? Smoking and obesity related illnesses. They’re also significant risk factors for covid. But apparently we can overlook these people who ‘don’t listen to the advice of medical professionals’ even though them losing weight or stopping smoking would have longer term benefits for the NHS, beyond coronavirus.

You say you "know", but then v the whataboutery starts again. Look at the actual figures, because they matter enormously on a population scale. Under 50% of those previously infected with covid are immune to Delta, yet it's over 80% for those vaccinated, and well over 90% of those vaccinated don't require hospitalisation. The figures are not the same, so stop pretending that they are.

You may have missed it, but there are significant programmes in the NHS to target stopping smoking and weight loss. Neither are being overlooked.

Under 50% of those previously infected with covid are immune to Delta

Can you post the source for this please?

I’m saying people on this thread are overlooking them. Many people declining the vaccine are young and healthy. They’re much lower risk than an obese person. Clearly there are still plenty of people ‘not listening to the advice of medical professionals’ given the obesity problem we have in the U.K.

Please stop accusing me of saying things that I haven’t. I did not say ‘the figures were the same’.

@bumbleymummy - here you go, www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9
Only 47% had immunity to Delta.

I agree that there are lots of things all of us can do to keep ourselves well. The vaccine is a very easy thing for us to do though. Very easy. We just have to turn up.

It doesn’t say that. The 47% refers to neutralisation at month 12.

“ Sera from between 76% and 92% of individuals neutralized the four strains at month 6. The fraction of neutralizers was lower in the second cohort at month 12, and this effect was particularly marked for the Beta and Delta variants. ”

It’s also comparing antibodies after vaccination up to 16 weeks iirc. So not the same timeframe.

By choosing not to have the vaccine you are still benefiting from the 90% of people who took the vaccine to end the pandemic. Yes, it’s selfish. But a lot of humans are.

If I :
don't smoke
don't drink
have a BMI of 23
exercise daily
eat only plant based, non processed food
have eaten a Maccy D only maybe twice in my life when I couldn't find anything else to eat ( IMO they are disgusting).
donate generously to the poor in my country of origin and in the Uk
haven't been to the doctor in over 3 years

THEN can I ask people to take more responsibility?:) Seeing as that is now the high bar set by some people on this thread. The gymnastics are worthy of Simone BIle.

@bumbleymummy

It doesn’t say that. The 47% refers to neutralisation at month 12.

“ Sera from between 76% and 92% of individuals neutralized the four strains at month 6. The fraction of neutralizers was lower in the second cohort at month 12, and this effect was particularly marked for the Beta and Delta variants. ”

It’s also comparing antibodies after vaccination up to 16 weeks iirc. So not the same timeframe.

Just stop. You are not a scientist, you need to actually read research instead of deciding you're right because you think you know better and trying to twist facts to suit the narrative you made up in your head. Those who don't get full protection from vaccines have been shown to be only the frail and clinically vulnerable, whereas results from natural infection are far more mixed with many young and healthy people not having protection. If you were infected in wave 1, your protection is extremely low and you need to be vaccinated or you will catch it again. If you are vaccinated then you can get a booster, if you had natural infection then saying "I'm immune" with your hands over your eyes doesn't help when that immunity is gone, you will catch it and be a risk to others again. If that's your choice then that's your choice, but just stop pretending you are somehow the same level of risk as those who have been vaccinated when you can see the evidence that you are higher risk. Own your choice.

MRex, are you a scientist? I’ve literally just quoted from the study so I’m not sure why you think this is something ‘I think I know better’ or am ‘twisting’.

You stated:

“ Under 50% of those previously infected with covid are immune to Delta, yet it's over 80% for those vaccinated”

That is not correct. You were comparing immunity 12 months after infection to immunity up to 16 weeks after vaccination. Surely you can see how that is not a fair comparison? As I quoted above, the study showed that 6 months after infection 76-92% of people with previous infection still had immunity.

Those who don't get full protection from vaccines have been shown to be only the frail and clinically vulnerable

This is not correct either. Where did you get this idea from?

I posted at length on another thread about duration of natural immunity. This document has links to plenty of studies if you’re interested:

www.hiqa.ie/sites/default/files/2021-06/Duration-of%20protective-immunity-evidence-summary_22-June-2021.pdf

Summary of findings:

“The updated evidence summary identified 19 large cohort studies involving over 640,000 previously infected individuals, including six studies with over ten months’ follow-up. Across studies, the risk of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection was consistently found to be low. No study reported an increase in reinfection risk over time. More limited data were identified in relation to the immune response to SARS-CoV-2 infection. The identified studies suggest that immune memory develops in most or all people that have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 and lasts for at least nine months

There's no point in getting angry with the facts @bumbleymummy. 9 months from last March was December. 9 months from January of September. 12 months is only 3 months longer and passes very quickly.

Here is a paper showing the reductions in immunity for those who are immunocompromised, as you don't appear to believe they might not get the same protection: www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.28.21259576v1.full

I don't think bumbleymummy is a scientist

I’m not ‘getting angry at the facts’. I’m correcting your misrepresentation of the findings in that paper.

I know that protection in immunocompromised people is lower. That is not the same as

‘Those who don't get full protection from vaccines have been shown to be only the frail and clinically vulnerable’

Which is what you stated. Can you see the difference?

[quote WanderingFruitWonderer]@teepsp it's been a pleasure reading all your lovely sensible posts over my morning cuppa! It's about 7.15am here.
I think being in NZ has kind of preserved you! We've all gone a bit mad in the UK, as the Covid situation's been so dire at times over the last 18 months or so. We're all somewhat battle-scarred and emotionally damaged now, hence some the alarming posts, on both ends of the spectrum. I've learned to forgive it all now, as I know we've all lost the plot a bit.
Your sensible posts are from a protected paradise, like greetings from another world!
Re your reply to my last post. Yes, it's indeed been humbling to recognise that ethical perfection (or anything close to it) is totally impossible. Great advice about choosing my little part to focus on...[/quote]
Yes it's true, re the protected paradise, we have been watching how it's unfolding in the UK and elsewhere in Europe, USA and the rest of the world with a degree of alarm from the distance of a very safe haven and I have also been watching the vaccination issue shift from parents of small babies to the general population. A few things are obvious. The virus is real and the deaths, and manner of death, are shocking. The vaccination is probably our best collective hope of avoiding horrible deaths for more people than I ever could have imagined would die this way. We have the right to refuse medical procedures we don't want. (I did not vaccinate my kids back in the 90s). There is no Plandemic. It's just a pandemic and we are all living through it.

[quote MRex]@bumbleymummy - here you go, www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03777-9
Only 47% had immunity to Delta.[/quote]
Yup, I'm not sure why the insistence on arguing that black is blue.

Here's yet more evidence from the CCD, reported by NY times (manuscript not available).

The study, by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, examined the risk of reinfection during May and June among hundreds of Kentucky residents who tested positive for the virus in 2020.

Those who did not get vaccinated this year faced a risk of reinfection that was 2.34 higher than those who did get their shots.

www.nytimes.com/2021/08/06/health/covid-vaccine-reinfection.html

@FuckeryOmbudsman

I don't think bumbleymummy is a scientist

Hasn't stopped them from taking every opportunity to twist reports to minimise the impact of COVID, and argue mass vaccination isn't necessary for the past 18 months.

This is alongside 10 year posting history on here of the same for other infectious diseases that vaccination is advised for.

@leafyygreens did you read the study? MRex is comparing immunity 12 months after infection to immunity 16 weeks after infection.

Again, from the paper,

“ Sera from between 76% and 92% of individuals neutralized the four strains at month 6. The fraction of neutralizers was lower in the second cohort at month 12, and this effect was particularly marked for the Beta and Delta variants”

And again, see the above HIQA link. Are you saying that they wrong in their findings?

“ The identified studies suggest that immune memory develops in most or all people that have been infected with SARS-CoV-2 and lasts for at least nine months”

16 weeks after vaccination

The feeling I get from my circle is that restrictions have been lifted due to the fact that so many are double vaccinated. We can see family and friends and get back to normal ‘thanks’ to those who have taken the vaccination.

I believe they would like some recognition from those who have chosen not to vaccinate. That they should feel grateful to them. If the majority of the population hadn’t taken the vaccination, would we be be where we are today do you think?

@Wideawakeandconfused we had to lockdown and have restrictions for over a year to prevent mass hospitalisations/deaths in the most vulnerable groups. They were prioritised for vaccination (rightly so). Should they not feel grateful rather than condemning the people who gave up a lot to protect them?

[quote bumbleymummy]@Wideawakeandconfused we had to lockdown and have restrictions for over a year to prevent mass hospitalisations/deaths in the most vulnerable groups. They were prioritised for vaccination (rightly so). Should they not feel grateful rather than condemning the people who gave up a lot to protect them?[/quote]
Again, you are totally swerving the question asked by another poster "If the majority of the population hadn’t taken the vaccination, would we be be where we are today do you think?"

But this entire conversation with you happened 2 pages ago with exactly the same result, so.

I am also double vaccinated. These are the feelings of some friends. I am very grateful that so many have stepped up and we can now move on.

These are interesting discussions. I have spoken to a few unvaccinated people at work. They are unvaccinated through choice yet they are concerned that they will be restricted by their choices eg attending events, going on holiday, restaurants etc. To be, these concerns point to their decision being completely personal.

@bumbleymummy - you're arguing an illogical non-point. The point you keep failing to acknowledge is that the immunity for those who were infected does wane, 47% were not able to mount a response to the Delta variant. It doesn't matter how many months you are looking at; time passes quickly and we are 20 months into the pandemic already, 17 in the UK. Those are numbers bigger than 12 months of the study. By January next year, that'll be most of the Alpha UK infected who risk losing immunity if they haven't been vaccinated. It is not like measles where the kid lives or dies but keeps immunity if they live; many people can and do catch covid more than once.

Vaccinated people had a better response and can have a booster if it's necessary; that is not yet confirmed as required for everyone, but can be consistently monitored for public health. Unvaccinated can just get covid again, and pass it on again. Then the unvaccinated one can get it again. Repeat every year.